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starcrytas
09-10-2020 at 12:40 PM
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Rounding Speedrun Times

Hi everyone,

What are your thoughts on rounding speedrun times? I've seen rounding brought up on manually timed speedrun submissions, and it's not one of those "set in stone" rules.

Let's say I get a run that is timed to 5:00.7.

Would it be 5:01, or would the milliseconds be ignored and the time is 5:00?

Personally, I disagree with rounding because the timer didn't tick to the next second.

I know there were some rounded speedrun times accepted (I think some Sonic speedruns), but only in those few cases and I don't remember if there was a discussion out side of a submission to decide if rounding is necessary.

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Comments
  1. Ninglendo's Avatar

    This old argument again lol Personally I think rounding times down in speedruns is dumb in this day and age. We have technology that allows players to count the exact frames in a run. Why would any of the SMB speedrunners want to come here to submit? Those people are literally battling over frames so to tell them they all have to round their times would be laughable.

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  2. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Do we need greater timing resolution ability in our submission form? Or is the current time entry format available sufficient?

  3. starcrytas's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Do we need greater timing resolution ability in our submission form? Or is the current time entry format available sufficient?

    Not necessary.

    I can easily enter the milliseconds if necessary.

  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    i'm a big believer in letting people short change themselves. if someone wants to round UP never down, to make things easier on adjudicators i'm on board.

    the only thing i'd say for the forms, is a shockingly lot of people dont know how millisecons work. if something is 1.234 seconds they know is 234 milliseconds. but if something is 1.23 seconds they think its 23 milliseconds.

    it may be better to NOT have a millisecond field but rather allow a decimal in the seconds field to avoid this confusion. many new members have burned their free submission on this

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  5. Maris Memes's Avatar

    I would like to drop my pennies here.

    98% of the time a speedrunner is using livesplit or some program like it. The other 2% people add a visual stopwatch in editing which is still somewhat acceptable if it starts and ends at the required parts. (EX: Zelda 2, Pressing Start on the file name and ending when Link stops moving to the sage at the end.)

    Typically, Both of these go down to and display the last millisecond. I'm going to agree with Ninglendo.

    I do however want to add that some games have built-in timers or show your run time at the end.

    A nice example is I have been speedrunning Final Fantasy 14 the duty "The Aurum Vale" and at the end of finishing the final boss, in text chat shows the time it took to clear the duty. My time for example is 2:01 (I haven't uploaded it to the main speedrun com website, but it's the third best time based on that list.) I used Black Mage and I'm not 100% sure if the time spent unable to move at the start and to the point of cutscenes which need to be manually skipped are possible causes to be added to your time playing that game, but it could be EVER SO SLIGHTLY different than if I used livesplit. I'll have to try and livesplit that run tonight. I just never bothered to try livesplit cause it tells you the time.

    But that isn't down to the millisecond. It's just the games rendered time; Not your time.

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  6. Ninglendo's Avatar

    I once had a speedrun rejected on here by the community because my timing method was too accurate LULZ

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  7. RaGe's Avatar

    TG has always rounded off, unless the game specifically says differently (there may be a game or two). If you see a speedrun here, the time was rounded. So Starcrytas' example would be 5:01.


    I don't think there should be a debate about timed game tracks that have been in the database for years.. You can't switch things up on tracks with existing rounded scores, but new timed tracks really should use exact time--It's too easy to grab a freebee like livesplit.



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  8. EVN's Avatar

    As long as you are rounding up I don't see a problem you can't round down.

  9. Fly's Avatar

    I've been here since 1998 or 99. I've seen it all. Way way back, it was just whole seconds. Then it was nearest second. Then it was always round up. And now everyone has no clue what it was or is cuz it's game specific.

    I think I'm gonna go speedrun something with a sun dial.

    Fly

  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    It may be possible for TG to get milliseconds added to the built in TG video player time bar display (instead of just seconds.)

    Is it worth me pursing this addition? Will it help?

    Let me know.



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    Updated 09-10-2020 at 06:21 PM by Jace Hall
  11. Barthax's Avatar

    Just want to highlight (yet again) that any footage is not accurate to milliseconds unless the capture is 100FPS or better. So any notion of being "millisecond accurate" on a typical 24-30 FPS piece of film is ludicrous. :P

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  12. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    Just want to highlight (yet again) that any footage is not accurate to milliseconds unless the capture is 100FPS or better. So any notion of being "millisecond accurate" on a typical 24-30 FPS piece of film is ludicrous. :P

    Our system does playback 60fps so theoretically some greater timing resolution should be possible...

  13. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


    Our system does playback 60fps so theoretically some greater timing resolution should be possible...

    It supports 60 FPS but the original footage & even consoles are less than centisecond accurate, let alone millisecond accurate. The player can't invent information that isn't there.

  14. starcrytas's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    Just want to highlight (yet again) that any footage is not accurate to milliseconds unless the capture is 100FPS or better. So any notion of being "millisecond accurate" on a typical 24-30 FPS piece of film is ludicrous. :P

    Can't you just load the video in an editing software, find the start and end frames, and get the exact timing that way? I think some software can count the number of frames in a video, so take that number and divide it by the game's frame rate, to get accurate time.

    Or you can use http://www.watchframebyframe.com/

    Another option that is rarely used is to look at the audio waves and find where the sound for start and stop should be and time with the audio.

    We get the milliseconds from the frame count, not from a video being 100FPS.

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  15. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by starcrytas


    Can't you just load the video in an editing software, find the start and end frames, and get the exact timing that way? I think some software can count the number of frames in a video, so take that number and divide it by the game's frame rate, to get accurate time.

    Or you can use http://www.watchframebyframe.com/

    Another option that is rarely used is to look at the audio waves and find where the sound for start and stop should be and time with the audio.

    We get the milliseconds from the frame count, not from a video being 100FPS.


    Sure you can. Now find almost any of the Jesse Porter, et al, submissions where they have two videos & confirm that is accurate for both videos. ;)


    [Edit:] By the way, frame-by-frame is already possible with YouTube & TG video players: , and . keyboard inputs.

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    Updated 09-11-2020 at 01:16 AM by Barthax
  16. Barthax's Avatar

    Recorded for a completely different reason, here's a perfect example of lack-of accuracy for exactly the same event:

    The "event" reference video which also briefly shows the setup of the recording devices (except itself, of course) around 5:25


    Then select the "best" footage to cheat the audience into believing the run was quicker with rounding down than it actually was, 'cause "under 13 mins" must be 12:59, right?!

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    Updated 09-11-2020 at 03:17 AM by Barthax
  17. Barthax's Avatar

    Note: I'm not saying that all manual timed runs must adhere to second-level boundaries. There's ample evidence that 0.1 and 0.01 is reasonable (there's no evidence for most consoles, cameras or old computers that 0.001 is reasonable) but you face the exact same problem whether it be 10-second, 1-second, 0.1 second or 0.01 second: the footage is almost never exactly on the boundary & even if it is, it does not mean the footage is at all accurate anyway!

    Rounding up is a fail safe to cater for poor equipment (heck, we've had submissions from such poor footage that there is 5+ second area where a run might have ended).

    Rounding down is simply lying. The evidence shows the run took longer.

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    Updated 09-11-2020 at 04:40 AM by Barthax
  18. Madsandy's Avatar

    Im going to time all of my 5 minute runs down to the nearest hour so that all of my scores are instantaneous.

    Mwahahaha try beating me now!!!

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  19. Fly's Avatar

    Ok, done with my sun dial run. Was doing full days. It never leaned past 1 Day. So final time....0 Days.

    Hec

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  20. starcrytas's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    [Edit:] By the way, frame-by-frame is already possible with YouTube & TG video players: , and . keyboard inputs.

    Some speedruns I've verified on speedrun.com don't have a timer on screen, so another tool is needed to time the run frame by frame.

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