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starsoldier1
06-23-2021 at 06:20 AM
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NTSC/Pal Debate

Recently I had a Tetris Pal score removed for being the wrong region for a Pal NES console but I also have other Pal records for games like Mega Man, Star Soldier, Panic Restaurant, Castlevania 3 and many more titles that may be the wrong region as well. The problem is I like to use real carts compared to everdrives files and some of these games might have been NTSC carts on a Pal system unit. The thing is these carts that work fine on a Pal system so I first thought they were region free and therefore acceptable. I even used a few Pal on Pal NES submissions before like Asterix, the Guardian Legend and Kung Fu before. However, even though the games might work between regions I still wanna clear the air on some of my previous NES Pal submissions here. From now on I will be sure to only use Pal on Pal to avoid further confusion.

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  1. freeko's Avatar

    I want to be clear here. I noticed that a great deal of games in the NES PAL submissions from Ryan were NTSC or a very likely NTSC based multi 150 in 1.

    Ryan is right that Asterix, The Guardian Legend, Bad Dudes, and Parasol Stars are all PAL versions of the games played on a PAL system. I might be able to confirm a few more but there is a large majority of the games that are NTSC carts being played in a PAL console.

    As well as a recent dispute bringing to light that the Genesis PAL submissions need to be looked at again.

  2. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Since adjudicators are about to be hit HARD, I was expecting at least an apology, but that didn't happen, instead these are just excuses and you are making it look like it's not a big deal, just a silly honest mistake, or to be more precise, lots and lots of honest mistakes.

    In my opinion you should have come clean after Jesper called you out on your Tetris score, you should have confessed that the majority of your PAL scores were played the same way. Instead you said nothing and now that Freeko has called you out on this, you give excuses like "I prefer using original carts over everdrives" which to me is not even a good excuse. Using everdrives with the correct roms would have been the right thing to do. Also you say that "I first thought they were region free and therefore acceptable", my question is, when did you find out that they were not acceptable and why didn't you say anything?

    You usually show your cartridges or discs in every submisison, except your PAL scores, the game is usually inside the console and already running so people can't really see if they are the correct region, to me this seems to have been done on porpouse because you knew it wasn't acceptable.

    But anyway, now that this has come up, can you at least list all the scores that are unnaceptable and should be removed or are you expecting adjudicators to do it for you?

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  3. datagod's Avatar

    Just so I can understand things a bit better, what is the implication of using an NTSC cartridge on an PAL system?

  4. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod

    Just so I can understand things a bit better, what is the implication of using an NTSC cartridge on an PAL system?

    NTSC games run slower if used in a PAL NES. They run slower than NTSC and slower than normal PAL games, giving players unfair advantages, specially in games like Tetris.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/231446-Dispute-Daniel-Ocampo-NES-FAMICOM-DISK-Tetris-Nintendo-Version-PAL-Points-Player-Ryan-Genno-Score-280-683

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  5. 321Tieguy's Avatar

    Ouch. This is why Im leery of voting on submissions, or posting my own submissions that use hardware Im not familiar with. Im going to stay neutral here, but I am surprised to see a collector who has such an obvious passion for retro video gaming but was unaware that there is a difference in NTSC and PAL cartridges, as well as the system itself.


    Im sorry to hear about this Ryan. Bringing it up publicly was the first step, and moving on, I dont know what is involved in removing one's own submissions, but it sounds like you definitely have some clean up work to do. Hopefully putting in the work to set things straight will be enough for everyone, a bad day on Twin Galaxies is never a fun thing.

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  6. starsoldier1's Avatar

    I'm sorry about this OK, I just didn't know it was a problem then. Like I said I didn't think it was a issue since the games worked and I'm doing something about it now that there is more information on this subject. I didn't always show the cart (although sometimes I did) but that's not always required for submissions and to be fair many of your recent videos don't even show a system or game boot up screen. I'm hoping if these Pal submissions are considered questionable that maybe Twin Galaxies will remove the scores themselves and no one who voted would lose credibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

    Since adjudicators are about to be hit HARD, I was expecting at least an apology, but that didn't happen, instead these are just excuses and you are making it look like it's not a big deal, just a silly honest mistake, or to be more precise, lots and lots of honest mistakes.

    In my opinion you should have come clean after Jesper called you out on your Tetris score, you should have confessed that the majority of your PAL scores were played the same way. Instead you said nothing and now that Freeko has called you out on this, you give excuses like "I prefer using original carts over everdrives" which to me is not even a good excuse. Using everdrives with the correct roms would have been the right thing to do. Also you say that "I first thought they were region free and therefore acceptable", my question is, when did you find out that they were not acceptable and why didn't you say anything?

    You usually show your cartridges or discs in every submisison, except your PAL scores, the game is usually inside the console and already running so people can't really see if they are the correct region, to me this seems to have been done on porpouse because you knew it wasn't acceptable.

    But anyway, now that this has come up, can you at least list all the scores that are unnaceptable and should be removed or are you expecting adjudicators to do it for you?

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  7. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by starsoldier1

    I'm sorry about this OK, I just didn't know it was a problem then. Like I said I didn't think it was a issue since the games worked and I'm doing something about it now that there is more information on this subject.

    Man, stop with the lies. The only reason you posted this is because other players caught you. Don't pretend you are doing it out of the goodness of your heart. Freeko and myself have been exchanging messages for weeks discussing this situation. Freeko brought this it up weeks ago in the Tetris dispute, he said that an investigation should be launched to analyze your PAL submissions to make sure you didn't do the same with other games and you didn't even respond to that. After that, he and I checked many of your scores and discovered this, then he asked me what I thought about this and I said to him that in my opinion he should send you a message asking you to come clean, thus giving you an oportunity to confess on your own, and yesterday he did it, otherwise you would have never admited it.

    Quote Originally Posted by starsoldier1

    I didn't always show the cart (although sometimes I did) but that's not always required for submissions and to be fair many of your recent videos don't even show a system or game boot up screen.

    LoL, can you please provide specific examples where my scores are lacking evidence? I'm willing to accept a life ban if what you are saying is true. But I assure you, you won't find a single one of my scores that lacks the neccesary evidence to be accepted, other than the very firsts scores I submitted here when I first joined 4 years ago and the only reason I don't show a boot up of the system and game in those is because I recorded those scores before I even knew TG existed. When I joined and I submitted them, members informed me about the standards of proof here and were kind enough to give me a pass in those scores. After that, not a single one of my scores has been cuestioned, so it would be very interesting if you can provide examples.

    I just hope you don't use the ridiculous argument of "you are not showing your system in your direct capture scores".

    Quote Originally Posted by starsoldier1

    I'm hoping if these Pal submissions are considered questionable that maybe Twin Galaxies will remove the scores themselves and no one who voted would lose credibility?

    If these are considered questionable? So you are not sure yet? You keep putting yourself in a worst situation acting like this.

    And to be clear I have nothing against you personally, I have adjudicated probably hundreds of your scores and even voted for you for most prolific gamer of the year in the past peer choice awards, but this is completely unacceptable.

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  8. datagod's Avatar

    Ryan, can you explain why you didn't notice that the NTSC games played slower on a PAL system?

  9. starsoldier1's Avatar

    Dude, I wasn't lying and I even apologized here too. Freeko just messaged a few hours about this and now we are doing something about it. Isn't that what you wanted? I even showed both the system and cart in the console in these submissions but if there is a problem I want it fixed too. I have nothing against you personally either dude and I voted yes on a lot of your recent vids too but I'm just saying the whole Pal/NTSC issue is confusing because sometimes games are region free and sometimes they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola


    Man, stop with the lies. The only reason you posted this is because other players caught you. Don't pretend you are doing it out of the goodness of your heart. Freeko and myself have been exchanging messages for weeks discussing this situation. Freeko brought this it up weeks ago in the Tetris dispute, he said that an investigation should be launched to analyze your PAL submissions to make sure you didn't do the same with other games and you didn't even respond to that. After that, he and I checked many of your scores and discovered this, then he asked me what I thought about this and I said to him that in my opinion he should send you a message asking you to come clean, thus giving you an oportunity to confess on your own, and yesterday he did it, otherwise you would have never admited it.


    LoL, can you please provide specific examples where my scores are lacking evidence? I'm willing to accept a life ban if what you are saying is true. But I assure you, you won't find a single one of my scores that lacks the neccesary evidence to be accepted, other than the very firsts scores I submitted here when I first joined 4 years ago and the only reason I don't show a boot up of the system and game in those is because I recorded those scores before I even knew TG existed. When I joined and I submitted them, members informed me about the standards of proof here and were kind enough to give me a pass in those scores. After that, not a single one of my scores has been cuestioned, so it would be very interesting if you can provide examples.

    I just hope you don't use the ridiculous argument of "you are not showing your system in your direct capture scores".


    If these are considered questionable? So you are not sure yet? You keep putting yourself in a worst situation acting like this.

    And to be clear I have nothing against you personally, I have adjudicated probably hundreds of your scores and even voted for you for most prolific gamer of the year in the past peer choice awards, but this is completely unacceptable.

  10. starsoldier1's Avatar

    I did notice but it's like that on the Sega Master System Pal release too so I thought 50hz was the norm on the NES too.

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod

    Ryan, can you explain why you didn't notice that the NTSC games played slower on a PAL system?

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  11. freeko's Avatar

    All the alleged PAL submissions use a Japanese Mega Drive 2. That console is not a PAL console. I will admit that I did see a few games that might have been PAL games, but that is in no way a PAL console Ryan is using for these submissions.

  12. Rickster8's Avatar

    So how far back does all this go? How many subs are we talking? How bad is this 'hit' going to be cred-wise to voters?

  13. freeko's Avatar

    I have no idea how far back this goes, but there are roughly 50 bad NES scores and 29 bad Mega Drive scores. That's just the start. I have yet to look at the rest of the systems. So far out of 352 PAL submissions that Ryan has made and have been accepted, roughly 80 of the 90 I have looked at so far are bad submissions. I'll venture a guess as to when I get some information from my Belgian friend, I'll be able to say for sure on the games that I am unsure of. So far out of that 90 I can confirm 4 as being legitimate PAL games in a PAL console. My guess is that about half of the inconclusive results to be legit.

    Some case by case arguments can be made for some of the NES games, as he has a PAL console. Exactly zero arguments can be made for his mega drive submissions as that is a NTSC japanese console. I'll know more as I sift through the carnage. To be perfectly honest, I never had a PSP so I will say right now that it will be unlikely that I can reach a definitive conclusion when it comes to that particular console.

    To be honest, this is exactly why the current adjudication system does not work. What should have been obvious for score refusal is now left in the hands of members that have no idea what to look for when it comes to what should be a valid submission. Back in the day, to my knowledge, the console and game had to be shown. This has to be a rule even now and this case study is exactly why the console and disc/cart need to be shown as a part of a valid submission. Nevermind everyone jumping on the submission train once one person states "Accepted!" in the submission thread. All the me-too credibility hunters jump on with no effort put into the mix. I hope voting privledges get revoked for those who blindly jumped on all these submissions as a result of them being invalidated.

    When I looked through the NES games, I figured that it was a potential honest mistake. Now that I see the mega drive submissions, I am starting to turn toward thinking this is more of a deception to gather more (illegitimate) world records. My frustration is starting to show at this point so I am simply going to go to bed. Tomorrow I'll look at more submissions of Ryan's since he seems to think that it is our responsibility to remove what is bad. This attitude is really making me want to hope he is stripped of all his records and disallowed from submitting any more. It is incumbent on the player to play by the rules no more or less than it is upon the adjudicators to enforce the rules. This has been a case study on how the entire system can fail in spectacular fashion.

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  14. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickster8

    So how far back does all this go? How many subs are we talking? How bad is this 'hit' going to be cred-wise to voters?

    An adjudicator loses 5% of the total cred they had at the time of casting the vote for every wrong one.

    He's got 86 NES PAL scores, I haven't checked all of them, I checked about 15 and most of them showed signs of the gameplay being slower. I'm thinking at least 60 of those were played with the incorrect cart but only Ryan knows exactly. I asked him to list them but he hasn't done that, I don't know if he is expecting this to go away just by saying "I may have made lots of mistakes, but it won't happen again".

  15. Whilethekidsareaway's Avatar

    I have been following this and helping Freeko with some minor investigation into some of the submissions. I have found some to be legit, but that does not justify then many that are in question.

    As Eddie pointed out someone who is an avid collector and player of these games, I find it a bit hard to believe it was unknown about the difference between NTSC and PAL and the consoles they are played in and the speed differences.

    I also have to wonder if the playing field is level here due to Billy getting tossed out on his ear for one game that he cheated on when here we have what looks like multiple "Accidents or mistakes" across a few different consoles.

    I have nothing personal against anyone here but I for one think that this should not stand and should not be over looked as it allows for others to try to pull the same thing, intentional or not . If we are to follow what happened to Billy than I would advocate for the same treatment here.

    It is glaringly obvious that some kind of shenanigans is/was taking place and if we are to be the "New Twin Galaxies" where the score are legit and the players who take the time to learn a game and play it in a competitive manor are rewarded then I think the same fate Billy suffered should be applied here.

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  16. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    To be perfectly honest, I never had a PSP so I will say right now that it will be unlikely that I can reach a definitive conclusion when it comes to that particular console.


    No need to worry about the 120 PSP submissions, the tracks admit both PAL and NTSC, I'm assuming that's because there are no differences, so those are good.

    About the Sega consoles I have no idea, I have never owned a Sega console in my life other than the Dreamcast and I can tell a PAL from an NTSC on that console in the first 2 seconds of a submission.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    I hope voting privledges get revoked for those who blindly jumped on all these submissions as a result of them being invalidated.

    I disagree, there is already a punishment for those people who accepted these, the 5% cred reduction for every wrong vote. Besides, you can't punish people for not being an expert on every single console. I believe most of the people who accepted these scores acted in good faith. And I'm not saying this just to cover my own ass, since all my consoles are NTSC and I'm not familiar with PAL, I don't think I've voted on any PAL scores from Ryan.

    Updated 06-23-2021 at 09:43 PM by Pixe Sukola
  17. Whilethekidsareaway's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola


    An adjudicator loses 5% of the total cred they had at the time of casting the vote for every wrong one.

    He's got 86 NES PAL scores, I haven't checked all of them, I checked about 15 and most of them showed signs of the gameplay being slower. I'm thinking at least 60 of those were played with the incorrect cart but only Ryan knows exactly. I asked him to list them but he hasn't done that, I don't know if he is expecting this to go away just by saying "I may have made lots of mistakes, but it won't happen again".

    Do you know how it works for the blind voters? will they lose what they have gained? I think people may be afraid to vote out of fear of losing cred when they know its not legit but the crowd just votes yes blindly when one or two people say yes it a good score but dont thoroughly go over the evidence.

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  18. freeko's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

    I disagree, there is already a punishment for those people who accepted these, the 5% cred reduction for every wrong vote. Besides, you can't punish people for not being an expert on every single console. I believe most of the people who accepted these scores acted in good faith. And I'm not saying this just to cover my own ass, since all my consoles are NTSC and I'm not familiar with PAL, I don't think I've voted on any PAL scores from Ryan.

    This is a case study as to why people should not be voting if they are not qualified to do so. I feel people see someone say the score is accepted, and blindly vote to gain the reward of a correct vote. I know nothing about PSP games, so I will never vote on a PSP submission. However I have an extensive knowledge base on other console, of which I do submit votes on every so often. If I were more active on the site, maybe I would have caught the nonsense going on and nipped it in the bud. Who knows.

    The core problem is that there is an incentive to (blindly for most) vote yes to gain credibility and submission points. I have no clue how many votes it actively takes to pass a submission through the approval process. In all honesty, I do not care. However I do see submissions that are approved that have literally one person speaking in the thread that the game is "approved". Thus opening the flood gates for all the anonymous credibility and submission point seekers to pile on.

    That pet peeve of mine about this site is a matter for discussion at a different time.

  19. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Whilethekidsareaway


    Do you know how it works for the blind voters? will they lose what they have gained?

    Anybody who voted on these is going to lose way more than they gained. Members gain 3 credibility points for every right vote and lose 5% of their total cred for a wrong vote or if any accepted submission is later succesfully disputed.

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  20. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    "... blind voters ..."

    A yes vote on Ryan's scores do not necessarily equate to blind voting. Ive played on NES systems. I was one of the first in line at Toys R Us the morning it was released in the United States back in what ... 84? 85? I must have spent thousands of hours on it from the mid 80s through the mid 90s. Even I couldnt (and freaking STILL cant) detect a visual difference between an NTSC NES and a PAL one, because I was an avid *player*, not a *collector*. I gave no dåmns about the aesthetics of the box. Conversely, I can identify 6 different types of Atari 2600 consoles by sight alone. Some people who occasionally play would not be able to. Should they then be relegated to refrain from voting on all of my submissions? That is a ludicrous proposition that would manifest itself into having our voting queue balloon to 100 pages of subs like it was 2 years ago if applied across the board, because only a select few would qualify as "knowledgeable" on any respective system. Not sure that is the road down which we want to travel.

    Ive probably voted on most of Ryan's scores. Admittedly, I don't recall voting on any of his scores where the runs are more than 15 minutes. Too boring. The rest, though, I can expect to take a 30K credibility hit based on what has been revealed here, knocking me down to zero. Pretty sure at that point I will no longer be able to even submit, and it might just be lights out for me for awhile, or even permanently, tbh. I suppose its a good thing I dont give a squat about CR, otherwise I may have lost sleep over it. I digress ... Ive spent no less than 200 hours adjudicating just Ryan's scores over the years. Call me an ignorant voter, sure. But blind voter? Hardly. Someone not familiar with the intracacies of a particular console will not be able to tell the difference between region-specific consoles just by looking at the 0.4 seconds of footage that the player included of it, and expecting anyone who wouldn't be able to tell the difference to not vote will cause more problems than it solves. In my observation and experience, there is a semblance of belief that generally, the submitter isnt bullshıtting with their evidence, and that belief is part of the adjudication process.

    With that being said, we have remedies in place. If a player screwed up out of ignorance, that player and their voters will get hosed on CR big time, and the higher the CR, the bigger the hit. (For example, a 2,000 CR player gets penalized 100 CR for one wrong vote, whereas a 30,000 CR gets penalized 1,500 CR for EACH wrong vote. 20 wrong votes and the 30K player gets knocked down to 0 CR overnight, eliminating the benefit of adjudicating 10,000 submissions ... 10K adjudications worth of wasted time). If they did it knowingly and got caught, they are banned and scores removed if TG admin makes such a judgment. The best solution is for players to not screw up. I, for one, will no longer be voting for any NTSC submission by a PAL region player or vice versa and won't for any time soon (sorry Fred Bugmann, Matt Felix, et al), and I will not be voting on Ryan's scores anymore, indefinitely. *That* is the best way to penalize this kind of massive blunder. I don't believe the best solution is to publicly hang the guy (rhetorically speaking, for those who are violence-averse) for unintentional blunders, as frequent as those blunders were, and even less so, voters who may have voted yes. However, if there are strong indicators that it was intentional, Ill pull the lever myself, and I must admit ... it's not looking too great at the moment. Ryan getting out in front of it helps ... but only doing so after being prodded repeatedly doesn't.

    Just my opinion, and I'm just one guy.

    Updated 06-23-2021 at 11:09 PM by Garrett Holland
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