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Stephen Daultrey
12-05-2018 at 02:45 AM
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Championship Soccer / Pele's Soccer (Atari 2600): Question

Hi guys


This is probably one for the virtual Pele himself, @Marcade ...


Anyone familiar with the existing tracks for Championshop Soccer / Pele's Soccer? I'm trying to determine whether the tracks should simply be measured by Goals Scored, or for Highest Margin of Victory/Biggest Blow-Out (therefore deducting any computer goals from the player's own goal haul).

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/championship-soccer-peles-soccer/atari-2600-vcs


Unfortunately, all the score submissions were before 2011 so videos aren't available to view.


In light of the tracks not being called "Biggest Blow-Out", I've currently presumed them to be based on Most Goals Scored. However, the Difficulty A tracks result in the player's goal being enlarged. That would seem to be a pointless setting if computer goals weren't relevant (other than to perhaps waste a bit of time during the attempt).

Please note that all the current rules were written by me (they previously just said "Default Settings", as can be seen in the Additional Info field). I can adjust once clarified.

Thanks in advance

S

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Comments
  1. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I was working on this one a bit a while back and recall it being biggest blowout. If it were simply most goals scored the totals would be much higher as you could go 1 for 1 with the computer on goals and get a higher count. The computer ai becomes.more difficult as the goal difference grows.

    ThanksStephen Daultrey thanked this post
  2. Blackflag82's Avatar

    For the record, I could only ever get within one goal of Marc's score before the computer was able to shut down my scoring each time.

  3. Stephen Daultrey's Avatar

    On a side note, I think this was the first ever licensed football (soccer) game. Probably one of the first licensed sports games full stop. Although not sure how 'licensing' would have worked back then.

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  4. Marcade's Avatar


    Please delete your "goals scores" that you incorrectly added to the track. It was, and always will be "biggest blowout"/ or "margin of victory", just as myself and others submitted, and treated all those other sports tracks in the past.







  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    "biggest blowout" in general should be your assumption, of course, even more importantly never make assumptions. but yeah, in general "biggest blowout" except for some strange reason M*A*S*H one of the easiest games ever made that most people maxout on their very first try, for some strange reason that one isnt biggest blowout. so make the world's easiest game even easier by making it points, but leave everything else biggest blowout, but i digress

  6. Marcade's Avatar

    So 48 hours later, and still no fix...

    Is this how sudden "key rule" changes on existing tracks works now?

    Shoot now, then ask questions later?

    Do I have to be redundant, and now add this track to the "scoreboard error thread", so it can sit there incorrect for 6 months to a year, without a care in the world to fix what you broke?



  7. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade

    So 48 hours later, and still no fix...

    Is this how sudden "key rule" changes on existing tracks works now?

    Shoot now, then ask questions later?

    Do I have to be redundant, and now add this track to the "scoreboard error thread", so it can sit there incorrect for 6 months to a year, without a care in the world to fix what you broke?




    Yeesss??? Thank you, that's all the questions I have time for today.

  8. Dave Hawksett's Avatar

    Please remember the research team work part-time. We will sort this out just give us some time.

  9. datagod's Avatar

    [QUOTE=Dave Hawksett;bt34059]

    Please remember the research team work part-time. We will sort this out just give us some time.

    [/QUOTE]


    Please remember Dave that we are very rarely given information about what the staff is up to or what hours they work. This is news to me.

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  10. Snowflake's Avatar

    Perhaps use research time to research instead of haphazardly changing things before clocking out. More research less impulsive action

    ThanksBlackflag82, Marcade thanked this post
  11. Stephen Daultrey's Avatar

    Hi

    As promised, this is fixed.

    Marcade's reply was received UK night-time on Weds and I work elsewhere on Thursdays.

    On the subject of assumptions, both Fireball and Journey Escape on Atari 2600 make no reference to Difficulty Switches in their rules or track titles, yet both games make use of the switches to affect gameplay. Two video submissions for the latter have shown the players using Difficulty B. Fireball, unfortunately, has no video submissions as all scores were submitted pre-2011.

    Is the “assumption” in these rare instances that no mention of the Difficulty Switch means it is the player’s choice OR that Difficulty B is the “default setting”?

    Any thoughts and insight would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    SD

    ThanksMarcade thanked this post
    Updated 12-07-2018 at 07:43 AM by Stephen Daultrey
  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    dont assume anything is "default" setting. some moron ref messed up the atari 2600 making just that assumption. making everything game "1B", sometimes 1b isnt a real settng, sometimes its a harder setting. granted most of the time its easiest and default, but thx to that hero making assumption theres plenty of tracks we'll never know what the real rules are since its hard to know what was always game 1b and what some idiot ref just added/changed after the fact.


    there are many tracks with vague or contradicting rules. it sucks. but when there's insuffiicent data, well, theres insufficient data. trying to fix insufficient poorly written rules by just making up rules only makes things worse. at least with the bad rules, we know they're bad and can realize there was a problem. when you attempt to fix them with well written guesses you give the illusion of correctness and yes thats worse becuase not only is it wrong, but since it looks correct people dont even have a warning its wrong.

    bad wording,sure fix. proven cases of rule changes, sure fixed. but all those awful cases where rules are impossible to determine, well, there impossible to determine.

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    my best advice to tg staff in trying to uncover the past is get the old tapes you can and upload them. When the wording is impossible to determine, we cant help you and you cant just guess. The answer to how things used to be can only be found on the old tapes. Stephen's job here is impossible to do correct and you are setting him up for failure through no fault of his own. Give him the tools he needs and us the tools we need to help him. Find the original perfomances, upload them, and learn from that. anything else is guess work.

  14. Stephen Daultrey's Avatar

    Thanks Snowflake. When I said "assumption", I was partly referring to the two recent Journey Escape players who submitted scores.

    Generally speaking, if a game's rules are missing, unclear, vague etc, and researching/clarifying them is a problem for whatever reason, then I've logged them in a spreadsheet without performing any edits.

    Thanks

    SD

  15. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Daultrey

    Thanks Snowflake. When I said "assumption", I was partly referring to the two recent Journey Escape players who submitted scores.

    Generally speaking, if a game's rules are missing, unclear, vague etc, and researching/clarifying them is a problem for whatever reason, then I've logged them in a spreadsheet without performing any edits.

    Thanks

    SD


    A good place to start "research" is to check out Atari Age and investigate their manuals, which in those 2 examples DO reflect their difficulty switches differences - with easier and harder gameplay. Also, you sometimes might find "Visual differences" in available YT video links as well. Best resort, you can always experiment yourself with the Stella emulator to see for yourself.


    But what Snowflake said, Please never assume! Yes, "default settings only" in the rule set were "sometimes" created by lazy ignorant referees, who knew no better about the specific gameplay. We had to ask the platform referee what it "Should be". The answer me and others received were (thankfully consistant) Also, other times, less seldom, specific rules were ONCE THERE once upon a time, then disappeared due to technical problems or change in ownership/website changes/overhauls.


    Back to your question. If I, or another gamer were to NOW submit to Journey Escape or Fireball. I would obvious take advantage of playing in the easiest setting for the highest score possible. (who wouldnt?) Therefore, adjudicators can accept A or B gameplay. This would be similar to a title missing the NTSC/PAL region settings... the result would be "any would then apply". The only solution (for a proper track) would THEN be for someone to "create" a new additional track reflecting its NOW KNOWN difficulty setting.


    Back to sports games, 2600 Home Run and Fishing Derby are perfect specific rule setups, explaining its player vs. AI . (blowout/margin of victory)


    The "Real Sports" franchise of Atari, you will see those rule setups are NOT specifically stated. Unfortunately, There is one score under TGSAP (Football) , where one gamer (under TGSAP) got away with an accepted score with "most points". (As I raised the issue with my concerns in the adjudication post a year ago)


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/179222


    No hard feelings...Please be diligent in the future, thanks for the fix, and at least making me alert with the original tag.








    ThanksStephen Daultrey thanked this post
    Updated 12-07-2018 at 12:48 PM by Marcade
  16. Stephen Daultrey's Avatar

    Many thanks Marcade. That was very helpful.

    Just to quickly reassure you and the community on a few things.
    1) Before any edits are made, every track is thoroughly researched using the game’s manuals (such as on AtariAge), and then, if required, through video submissions and YT videos, and using the game itself.
    2) No rule edits are made unless the research team is confident they are correct. Any problem tracks are logged in a spreadsheet for future discussion and/or raised with community for insight.
    3) ALL edits are recorded in the Additional Info field for total transparency. That means should the Research team make a change that is not to the community’s approval or - God forbid - wrong, the original rules are easily viewable by everyone.

    Ultimately, the goal is to make TG a more appealing user experience. :)

    Thanks!
    SD

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