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08-21-2020 at 07:20 AM
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New Contact Policy

@Jace Hall @SincerelyFranny

So a new page has popped up in the rules;

https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:TG-Member-Contact-Policy

Which states that people on TG can be banned and have ALL their submission points taken away if they contact people outside of TG.

Would definitely like to get into this as I honestly think this is an absolute garbage policy.

First off, there is no official announcement of this huge new rule. It just appears out of nowhere.

I feel TG is completely in their rights to administer and handle communications within TG as they see fit. Might not always agree with their decisions but anything that directly passes through this website via messaging, wall posts, etc they are in control of. But for TG to says if I personally contact someone and the receiver doesn't like what I have to say, then TG will ban me for something that doesn't directly involve them is absurd.

TG already places the onus of proving disputes directly on the users and now we can't even reach out and ask a question of someone without fear of TG themselves coming down on us?

I would like some real world examples of how they plan to enact and enforce this new rule.


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Comments
  1. sdwyer138's Avatar

    TG needs to bring back the chat option. PMs are far too clunky to have a pleasant, ongoing, conversation over.

    I think it is common sense that chatting someone on fb or text you are friends with is ok, the point is unsolicited contact, which can easily spill over to harassment is not condoned, and it shouldn't be.

    You bring up a good point on the question of disputes. A previous member who might appreciate being consulted also might not know about a dispute otherwise. But also they might not give a **** (Tom Duncan being contacted through ebay messages comes to mind).

    Cant wait for someone to photoshop up some "external harassment" just to get someone else banned here :/

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  2. datagod's Avatar

    I recently had to send a communication to a person who was using my copyrighted material without permission. This is a monthly occurrence -- sometimes an individual, sometimes an entity such as Ars Technica.

    If the person I am contacting (email, social media) has a TG account, does that mean I am now in a position to be banned because I didn't first reach out to them on TG?

    To be on the safe side, should I CC Twin Galaxies in my communications without third parties?

    This policy seem overreaching and not clearly worded.

  3. datagod's Avatar

    The Donkey Kong forum is a water cooler conversation area. Many people go there to chat, including TG members (former and present). Will this now be grounds for banning on TG?

    If I go there to see what William Rosa is saying, and somebody there dislikes me and reports me to TG, is that bannable? You can't control conversations in a common chat room. Sure if a person is there specifically harassing a former member then yes I guess that is fair game. But who gets to judge? If I geniunely say "Hi Rosa, how you doing?" and he gets annoyed and reports me, is that truly bannable?

    I just see this not going anywhere good.

  4. Ninglendo's Avatar

  5. datagod's Avatar

    Here is another example: A well known yootoober (I actually like his shows) used a photo of me in a thumbnail for one of his videos. I was not mentioned in the video at all. It was about a discord discussion that involved XXX. I contacted the yootoober to ask why my face was included. This devolved into an angry reaction by the yootoober and a further video detailing our provate conversation. After a lengthy back and forth we agreed to resolve our differences and be pals again.

    Under the new policy, I would have no recourse. Contacting the yootoober would be a bannable offence.

    In another case, a notorious gamer had a score that was under dispute. That gamer was live streaming and discussing the people in the dispute thread making accusations of corruption and collusion. Do those accused people have the right to go to that live stream and defend themselves? It would appear that the answer is no.

    Does the new policy forbid TG members from making videos or social media posts about other members of TG?

    If a radical element of society makes a video directly targetting a TG member, does that mean THEY are now targetted for termination, TG account-wise?

    Its seems to me that if you want to a member of TG you better have a thick skin for critics, and keep your mouth shut.

    I sure hope I am wrong.

  6. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Datagod was named specifically as being the next shooter. His full name was used. The person that made this outrageous claim is also a TG member. Datagod had to contact them through their website to issue a legal warning. Who gets banned over that?

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  7. Barthax's Avatar

    I feel certain that's been policy for a long time.

    My understanding:

    If you have a TG matter to discuss with someone you don't know... don't go someone where else: contact them here.

    If you have a non-TG matter to discuss with someone you don't know... TG has no say in the matter.

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  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    this rule was around when jace's tg didnt even have submission yet, just forums, so yes a very long time as barthax says.

    The spirit of the rule -- whichh should really be stated because as we saw the literal wording is very problematic -- was to stop people from investigator scores by contacting the person without permission. ssdninja and rtm got into a big argument if you could contact holders of suspcioius scores off site and jace ultimately agreed with rtm. We've since seen disputes where the disputer actually mentions the contact so obvioulsy this rule -- even in cases it was explicilty made for -- was never enforced and therefore easy to forget exists.

    i dont think the rule was ever meant to stop a door to door salesman who happens to be a mebmer from contacting another member. I dont think its meant to stop a customer from going to a business where another tg memeber happesn to be employed. We can come up with all sorts of examples where its fully justified and none of jaces business for one member to contact another member outside of tg

    I'm assumign though whats trying to be avoided here is "twin galaxies by its nature results in the uninteded consquence of members attacking others off site", i think tg wants to remove liabiilty in those cases, and it would be nice for them to say so since otherise alot of us are gonna freak out about all the cases where its justified contacting someone.

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  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh another point, unintended consquences. Think of swatting, where a tool to stop murder (calling the police) is used to cause a murder. now i'm not saying police shouldnt exist, just that we have to be aware swatters exist. I guarantee you a rule like this, meant to stop harassment will itself become an avenue of harassment. People not even part of tg who stalk tg will be making accounts just to find ways to get tg members in trouble. members will find ways to set up and report other members. and thats just cases where the person at least limits themselves to technically true but out of context reports. they'll be lies too. how is tg gonna verify if an offsite email is real or photoshopped? definitely prepare for an influx of false reports.

  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    For clarity:

    1.) This rule is not new. It has been in place since March 30, 2015, as posted in the general public forum - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/141245-Impossible-Scores-on-the-Scoreboard?p=761709&viewfull=1#post761709

    2.) Twin Galaxies administration handles matters of moderation on a case-by-case basis and will take any action it deems appropriate to maintain a safe environment for all.

    3.) The policy, as written, is quite clear, and if a TG member reports to TG that they are being contacted by another TG member that they do not know or do not want to be contacted by, then TG Admin will look into the matter.

    If the person I am contacting (email, social media) has a TG account, does that mean I am now in a position to be banned because I didn't I recently had to send a communication to a person who was using my copyrighted material without permission. This is a monthly occurrence -- sometimes an individual, sometimes an entity such as Ars Technica. reach out to them on TG?

    Ars Technica is not a Twin Galaxies member. This policy applies to contact between TG members.

    If they were a TG member, the person or entity would need to report the contact to TG as the contact being a problem. TG would look into it and make a reasonable determination given all the factors and circumstances surrounding the contact.

    To be on the safe side, should I CC Twin Galaxies in my communications without third parties?

    To be on the safe side, members should always conduct themselves with reasonable and appropriate behavior and intentions - and avoid contacting TG Members who do not wish to be contacted.

    The Donkey Kong forum is a water cooler conversation area. Many people go there to chat, including TG members (former and present). Will this now be grounds for banning on TG?

    Please see the above answer. Is your communication designed and intended to harass that TG member in that location? Are you following that person around from public forum to public forum trying to harm them in some way? Context is key, and if a TG member feels that there is harassment or unsafe behavior being directed toward them by another TG member, TG Admin will look into it and make a reasonable determination given all the factors and circumstances surrounding the contact.

    If I go there to see what William Rosa is saying, and somebody there dislikes me and reports me to TG, is that bannable? You can't control conversations in a common chat room. Sure if a person is there specifically harassing a former member then yes I guess that is fair game. But who gets to judge?

    The person reporting must be a TG member and must be the target of the undesired contact. As for who gets to judge, Twin Galaxies admin makes the determination after something is reported.

    If I genuinely say "Hi Rosa, how you doing?" and he gets annoyed and reports me, is that truly bannable?

    I am not going to waste time answering pedantic questions about this policy that are not reasonable.

    Here is another example: A well known yootoober (I actually like his shows) used a photo of me in a thumbnail for one of his videos. I was not mentioned in the video at all. It was about a discord discussion that involved XXX. I contacted the yootoober to ask why my face was included. This devolved into an angry reaction by the yootoober and a further video detailing our provate conversation. After a lengthy back and forth we agreed to resolve our differences and be pals again.

    Under the new policy, I would have no recourse. Contacting the yootoober would be a bannable offence.

    If the youtuber was a TG member, the person or entity would need to report the contact to TG as the contact being a problem. TG would look into it and make a reasonable determination given all the factors and circumstances surrounding the contact.

    Does the new policy forbid TG members from making videos or social media posts about other members of TG?

    The contact policy is not a new policy.

    Regarding the question about videos - Are the videos designed and intended to harass or harm? Was there reasonable reason to believe that the creation of the videos would create harm? Etc. There are many factors to consider. Regardless, the person or entity who is the target of those videos would need to report the contact to TG as the contact being a problem. TG would look into it and make a reasonable determination given all the factors and circumstances surrounding the issue.

    Datagod was named specifically as being the next shooter. His full name was used. The person that made this outrageous claim is also a TG member. Datagod had to contact them through their website to issue a legal warning. Who gets banned over that?

    Good question. When a complaint is raised by the TG Members involved to TG admin, TG admin will make a determination. Perhaps all parties may get banned after an examination of the all the factors. Who knows.

    To be clear, TG's interest and its policies are focused on maintaining a safe environment for its members. New TG works to approach matters reasonably and with proper intention. Concurrently, TG members also carry a responsibility to operate within the terms of service and conduct themselves reasonably and with proper intention.


  11. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    oh another point, unintended consquences. Think of swatting, where a tool to stop murder (calling the police) is used to cause a murder. now i'm not saying police shouldnt exist, just that we have to be aware swatters exist. I guarantee you a rule like this, meant to stop harassment will itself become an avenue of harassment. People not even part of tg who stalk tg will be making accounts just to find ways to get tg members in trouble. members will find ways to set up and report other members. and thats just cases where the person at least limits themselves to technically true but out of context reports. they'll be lies too. how is tg gonna verify if an offsite email is real or photoshopped? definitely prepare for an influx of false reports.

    I think you will find our ability to get to the bottom of an issue and make the right call for TG and its members to be quite effective. Dont worry.

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  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    one more question that i dont think is corner case at all

    tg members consensually interact outside of tg. they get along for years. the relationship eventually sours. perhaps outright criminal harassment follows, perhaps simply one an unwanted contact. in these cases does tg get invovled considering the feud really isnt about tg?

    this is another case that i definitely believe will come up alot

  13. Desidious's Avatar

    Want to help make it harder to reach out outside of TG? REMOVE OUR FULL NAMES FROM THE PUBLIC VIEW. I can't believe I've had to say this more than once. I was seriously harassed via Facebook enough to make me fear for my wife as well. Come on, be smart about this.

  14. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious

    Want to help make it harder to reach out outside of TG? REMOVE OUR FULL NAMES FROM THE PUBLIC VIEW. I can't believe I've had to say this more than once. I was seriously harassed via Facebook enough to make me fear for my wife as well. Come on, be smart about this.

    Submissions carry full names for the purposes of official TG recognition, accountability and public record. This is no different than the Olympics or professional sports.

    Names are not exposed or utilized for public view otherwise.



  15. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    one more question that i dont think is corner case at all

    tg members consensually interact outside of tg. they get along for years. the relationship eventually sours. perhaps outright criminal harassment follows, perhaps simply one an unwanted contact. in these cases does tg get invovled considering the feud really isnt about tg?

    this is another case that i definitely believe will come up alot

    The person or entity involved would need to report the contact to TG as the contact being a problem. TG would look into it and make a reasonable determination given all the factors and circumstances surrounding the contact.

  16. OriginalPSP's Avatar

    I for one am thankful that this policy is being put in place / enforced.

    Scrolling through the other comments, I think it's being overthought by many. It's pretty clear... if one member doesn't want to be contacted by another member off-site then they shouldn't have to be.

    Other things in here aren't directly part of it... such as opinion based statements made elsewhere indirectly about another member. Opinions are like another body part... everyone has one.

    And I think if specific people are going to start claiming bans should take place because of "outlandish claims" about another member then half the forum will be banned, including the person who asked the question. Said person's example included further unwanted contact after the alleged "warning" that came after a specific request NOT to reply. Left that part out.

    Perhaps a better approach is 1). To address claims within the forum like grown ups or 2). Think what you want but leave it be.

    High time a lot of people here started realizing how bad this community looks to the other 99 percent of the world that sometimes looks into it. And I think that's the base of the rule.

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  17. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP


    Other things in here aren't directly part of it... such as opinion based statements made elsewhere indirectly about another member. Opinions are like another body part... everyone has one.

    And I think if specific people are going to start claiming bans should take place because of "outlandish claims" about another member then half the forum will be banned, including the person who asked the question. Said person's example included further unwanted contact after the alleged "warning" that came after a specific request NOT to reply. Left that part out.

    Dude, I've never made claims about you that were as disgusting as the ones you made about @datagod on Twitter. I might of criticized your opinions and behavior in the past, but I have never stooped that low. Using the guy's full name and saying he is gonna be the next one to do what Rudy did is despicable and downright disgusting.
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  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    It is an intereting distinguishment between trash talking someone in the third person versus directly contacting. @Jace Hall does the rule only apply to contact, or does the spirit include even negative third person statements?

  19. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    It is an intereting distinguishment between trash talking someone in the third person versus directly contacting. @Jace Hall does the rule only apply to contact, or does the spirit include even negative third person statements?

    One of the reasons that the TG community is amazing at the process of adjudication is because of its very pedantic nature of questioning and looking at everything academically from all angles. I get that.

    However, I am not going to go down that rabbit hole on this policy. The goal of the policy is to deter harassment and unwanted contact between Twin Galaxies members. Members can make of that what they will and consider it when they choose to interact with other TG members off site.

    Behavioral attempts to find out exactly "where the line is" will most likely result in having crossed the line that was being looked for. As we all know, harassment and undesired contact between TG members is not a game with fixed scoring.

    Twin Galaxies will continue to do what it reasonably can to provide a safe environment for the community.

  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh come on jace i know i can be pedantic, but contacting someone versus talking about them without contact can both be called harassment sure, but its pretty different actions.

    fine i tell you what i'll rephrase. can i take you answer to mean that talking about someone even if no contact is made would be viewed as a pedantic loophole and still outlawed? as patrick pointed out, if so, alot of people are about to be banned.

    i dont think its unreasonable for me to ask if you mean "harassment" in general (which would include both contact and trash talk) or if you literally just mean contact.

    also as glen points out, if trash talk isnt allowed, then actually, prepare for alot of very legitiamte complaints

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