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thegamer1185
02-20-2019 at 12:26 PM
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Disputing scores and the rules.

So I just posted this in a dispute thread based on the discussion that was happening. Needless to say, it apparently still really pisses me off. You guys can comment on this however you wish, but there are a lot of things TG needs to change/address to solve a lot of these matters. Because as many have pointed out lately, things have been said, then things have been done, and I don't think any of really knows exactly what is expected. Sorry for the language, but I was really getting mad the more I thought about it. Well, because it involved me and it brought back the time I was told that "Sorry if aren't able to use the system, but it is what is." Loosely translated.


Here is my comment in that dispute. I'm sure this will get some of you going so please, be nice. Lets actually figure this thing out and see if TG will acknowledge any of this.


"I still find it absolutely incredible that old scores in the database that have no evidence whatsoever backing their legitimacy other than a system that was corrupt as hell can be 100% protected while a newer system using video evidence that many members have to vote up to accept it can have that evidence go missing and it's an auto removal. Call me old fashioned, but I have said it many times and will never change my mind on it...that is the dumbest fucking thinking I have ever seen put in place!!!

Let me put it another way. It's fucking insulting to every single person who voted on that submission. Period. I trust the word of however many yes votes where needed (we don't know because we aren't told) over the single entry of a referee. No disrespect to any of you who where refs. My point is, even with blind voters, many people saw a gameplay and called it legit at the time of adjudication. The evidence goes missing and all of a sudden all those voters are fucking idiots for voting and the score is rejected. It's horse ****.

And because I know Datagod is going to back TG in this matter because he went on a missing video dispute hunt for some reason, find me one place where Jace actually says "missing evidence is an auto removal". I don't recall him ever saying that. I know he said the scores could be disputed, but never once the scores would be an auto reject. Meaning the community still has a voice in whether that score is legit. As for the contradicting argument that's been happening. TG has contradicted Jace or vice versa. We ALL remember the Dragster dispute. Jace argued for many, many pages that ANY score in the database was protected. Well, which is it? If all score are protected, why does missing video evidence change that? There is zero evidence for every single score pre-TGSAP. Yet they remain. Maybe I need to start disputing every single score and see what happens?

I have always hated this policy. It is absolute undermining, contradictory, insulting, and just wrong. It's like teaching a child you should never hit someone, and the one time they do it, you don't do anything about it. That's exactly what happened here and that's exactly what Jace was saying. Absolutely you should vote on a submission if it's valid, but if you do you will be punished for it if the video goes missing. That is so fucked up and I stated it a few years ago. THE VOTERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE EVIDENCE. What TG should have done was say this. Vote on all submissions in good faith, if any of the evidence goes missing, the submitter will be the punished. Done. Problem solved. All things that have happened afterward would have never happened.

TG did not back itself up in this scenario at all levels. All scores in the database are protected. Bullshit. I hate this whole separation of legacy scores/pre TGSAP scores. A score is a score. Voted by one or by a hundred, they are still a score. Honestly, us early years TGSAP submitters have been **** on hard. Let me restate that. Us TGSAP submitters who couldn't upload to TG because the system didn't work properly have been **** on. My God, TG needs to admit the missing videos from third party submitters is on them because the system wasn't fully functional for all members (it is now and I'm glad), and protect those scores like they do the old scores. All scores under the new TGSAP system obviously dont' have to worry about this now.

And before I'm told to just re-upload my videos, the only chance that will ever happen is if TG allows me to do it for free; no charge of SP. Because my score is already in the database and should be "protected". My god this argument is so infuriating. "

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Comments
  1. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I would also like to add since it's been bothering me lately. Rejecting a score because no boot or console is shown means all direct capture videos are rejects as well. I'm not criticizing anyone, I just wish TG would make a damn rule one way or the other. It's either allowed or it's not.

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  2. Joonas's Avatar

    Well the very first problem that should be tackled by TG management are the "affiliate" scores. Scores that many of the refs even didn't want in the database in the old TG, but Walter went ahead and added them anyway. As a result we have WR scores that have never been seen by anyone, just taken from some other score site without any evidence.

    Now how is someone supposed to dispute an affiliate score when there is no score video to even analyze, hard to come up with evidence against a score that is just some claim on some website by a person, made in year 2000.

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  3. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Joonas

    Well the very first problem that should be tackled by TG management are the "affiliate" scores.


    Agreed. Scores that were not verified by TG in any capacity should not be here. There are lots of scores that were just pulled from old magazines where it is impossible to know the settings used, etc. Some of those imported scores falsely carry the verification method of "referee".

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  4. sdwyer138's Avatar

    As far as the original question about disputing based on missing evidence is concerned..... That's a slippery slope.

    I do not think that every score with missing evidence should be disputed and/or removed. That said, I understand and agree with why the policy was implemented.

    What I don't understand however, is if TG stated that any TGSAP score with missing evidence would be removed:

    -Why is this not being done systematically by admin?

    -If a member does raise a dispute for the reason of missing evidence, why must it go through the laborious voting process? Either the score is there or it isn't. Ben Heck does not need to build a missing evidence simulator.

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  5. Barthax's Avatar

    The scores not only are a representation of gaming history (one of the intents of the scoreboard) but also show the evolution of veracity in TG's process. Affiliate scores are generally (not exclusively) early-days efforts to collate scores. Blatant removal of these scores (or any pre-TGSAP removal suggestion) is a process of selective rewriting of history.


    It's perfectly acceptable to cite no confidence in the scores & dispute threads can be opened for such. This is the correct way to act as it preserves the history (dispute threads are retained when scores are removed).

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  6. Barthax's Avatar

    On the matter of TGSAP evidence "going missing", spare a thought for Jared Oswald ( @trivia212005 ) who is having to repost huge numbers of submissions because he trusted that YouTube evidence was sufficient in the days of the TG uploader being unable to support multiple individuals.

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  7. Joonas's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    It's perfectly acceptable to cite no confidence in the scores & dispute threads can be opened for such. This is the correct way to act as it preserves the history (dispute threads are retained when scores are removed).


    But the problem is that the removal would require hard evidence which in most affiliate cases is impossible to do; instead the scoreboard stays tainted with scores that have as much credibility as me sending piece of paper that reads 1999 and some score on it, and declaring myself the world record holder.

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  8. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    On the matter of TGSAP evidence "going missing", spare a thought for Jared Oswald ( @trivia212005 ) who is having to repost huge numbers of submissions because he trusted that YouTube evidence was sufficient in the days of the TG uploader being unable to support multiple individuals.


    Myself and many others along with him. That's why I suggest TG allow those who want to actually upload re-submissions, let us do it without charge of SP. That seems really petty since I have a **** load of SP, but give us a little back and forth here. They acknowledge the system wasn't perfect, we had to use third party. I'm willing to upload if they allow me to do it for nothing since I've already done it once. That seems fair to me. Both accommodating for the other due to the circumstances.

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  9. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Joonas



    But the problem is that the removal would require hard evidence which in most affiliate cases is impossible to do; instead the scoreboard stays tainted with scores that have as much credibility as me sending piece of paper that reads 1999 and some score on it, and declaring myself the world record holder.


    Exactly my point as well!!. At least with the TGSAP you can look at the thread. ****, if you are lucky enough to have JJT Johnny adjudicate your video he provides a **** load of screen captures supporting your submissions. If there are absolutely zero negative remarks about the score that should be enough "supporting" evidence (and a **** load more evidence than any legacy score has mind you) to keep the score in the database.


    Hell, all of my youtube submissions show a console and boot up, along with the Everdrive cheats like all my submissions do now. Are you saying that isn't sufficient enough for people to let the score stand if someone comments on it in the thread? If a thread has zero negative comments, and all positive comments, that to me seems like that score should remain. If there are also screen captures of scores and the like in the threads also helps support the submission. Let the good faith prevail a little bit here.


    Especially now where it's almost become common place in the TGSAP system that if a boot up/console wasn't shown, someone made a comment on it.

    Updated 02-20-2019 at 02:02 PM by thegamer1185
  10. Joonas's Avatar

    You know what Kyle, I honestly think TG just don't have the ''resources'' to make sure that a submission is a re-submission so that it can be done for free. I know they should have that data, but who knows.

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  11. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Ha, probably right. I suppose checking the leader boards would be a bit difficult.

  12. Joonas's Avatar

    But no worries, TG is upgrading for better experience!!! : D

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    Well the main missing evidence ones I want removed if Rudy’s absolutely had negative comments on them. Him having his channel removed fir bad behavior should not benefit him with immunity

  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    Well the main missing evidence ones I want removed if Rudy’s absolutely had negative comments on them. Him having his channel removed fir bad behavior should not benefit him with immunity

  15. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I've got no love for Rudy, and I'm really glad he is gone, but the wholesale removal of his scores has always bugged me. Now, if there are some questionable scores with issues like leeching and they was discussed in the thread that might be ground for dispute, but it has never made any sense to me that efforts to remove things like his wild snake scored are even undertaken because the evidence went missing. This ignores the fact that the adjudication process is part of the evidence. Basically I agree with what Kyle has been saying. Unanimous accept comments should be sufficient supporting evidence in nearly all circumstances. And the ones it's not enough in can be disputed individually.

  16. datagod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    Unanimous accept comments should be sufficient supporting evidence in nearly all circumstances. And the ones it's not enough in can be disputed individually.


    When Jessie was active on the site he was in control of all his buddies accounts. The legend goes that he was the only one in his neighborhood with reliable internet. He could log in and vote on their behalf.


    Unanimous votes for sure.


    Then their videos were being made private to hide a technique.


    We can talk about what we want all day long. The reality is this: video goes missing, the scores can get challenged.


    As for Rudy, I dont' think a single one of his scores has been removed. The dispute system is slower than molasses in January.

  17. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Has any other person other than Jesse and his friends ever removed scores, Bill? I don't recall anyone do that. As a matter of fact, I think all the people who have tried cheating/admitted cheating/or have colluded/etc have all been banned or dealt with. We all know Jesse used to do that, but the new TGSAP prevents that.


    So yes, because of Jesse's past of removing videos for his own reasons, it makes sense why you bring him up. I can see why we ALL have to suffer for his actions that we can't control. Wait a minute. I feel like this whole being punished for things out of our control has been talked about before.


    Seriously though, name one active person, non banned person right now that you can say has done that and I'll let you win this argument. I am active enough I don't recall anyone other than Jesse removing videos that is still active.

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  18. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod


    We can talk about what we want all day long. The reality is this: video goes missing, the scores can get challenged.


    No one is arguing they can't be disputed, what we don't like is the treatment that they are all removed. Clearly people do not agree with this when other evidence still exists.

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  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    I don’t understand asking to name one person other than banned people when we’re talking about Rudy a banned persons scores. Obviously if you exclude him from the conversation it’s not possible to explain why his scores are fair game

  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    Or to turn your question around name one active person who’s having lots of their scores challenged despite uploading on good faith


    Ok fine Jared has some challenged I guess name two


    Seriously though despite my wording being imperfect I think you get the idea I’m trying to make


    I’m only remorseful on challenging moves twitch links that still exist since at time of submission removal not simple movement was cause for challenge

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    Updated 02-20-2019 at 03:50 PM by Snowflake
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