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thegamer1185
01-11-2020 at 05:58 PM
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Pausing - Is it allowed?

So it has been brought to the attention of some of us adjudicators that a run has been accepted into the TG database that has several pauses in it longer than 15 seconds. While I have always been told that pausing for any reason is not allowed, (except for recording purposes...which isn't written anywhere either) there is now a submitter who is using this already accepted submission that has pausing in it to pass there own. Rightfully so, equal across the board and I have no issue with them using that as reason to allow the submission to clear through adjudication.

Here is the issue. There is literally nothing in any TG policy about pausing.....except when it comes to tracks specifically labeled as "Marathon" which rule 3.0.B says pausing is not permitted. That is it. Nothing anywhere says you can't pause for any reason. While you could use the "spirit of the game" argument, which is a completely unclear discussion of it's own based on the individual/game/other circumstance, technically pausing is allowed then right? If the rules don't say anything about it, it's not against them.

@Jace Hall , @RTM "> @GibGirl "> @starsoldier1 "> @MyOwnWorstEnemy "> @timmell "> @RaGe , @Desidious , @Marcade , @starcrytas , @Barthax . Tag anyone else who used to be a ref or has any experience with this the more thoughts the better.

It's been brought up about 6 times over the last 3 years that the policies are out of date for what is allowed in this day and age of TG. I really think these rules and others need updating sooner than later. For example...pretty much all of my submissions should be rejected because I use Everdrive cartridges, AKA NOT ORIGINAL HARDWARE. I break rule 1 right out of the gate. Yep, can't call me a hypocrite because I just called myself out. However, Everdrives ARE accepted. Lots to discuss here.

This is rule 1 for reference. What needs changing? Mods are allowed, Everdrives, non original controllers, I can't comment on Arcade stuff but I know things have been changed a little on some of them parts wise.

"Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

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Comments
  1. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Can't pause. Is ridiculous.

    Oblivious to the score in question, I can't keep up with everything, but...

    Jeez.

    "Hardware" has been long established as the System used to play the game, as anything other than the original system cannot possibly be "the same", wheras play on Flashcarts most certainly is, a rom is a rom, that's a dead horse, we can continue to have it brought up every...friggin...month..., but is a useless endeavor, really.

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  2. lexmark's Avatar


    A hiding spot is fine with me to have a rest.(as per rules) Pausing isn't OK with me.


    john


    .

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  3. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I agree @Rogerpoco , yet it gets brought up quite a bit by new people. However if it was in the rules....

    Also agree @lexmark . I don't like pausing either.

    I guess I need to ask it this way. Has pausing ever been acceptable that isn't already mentioned in the rules? Again, there is a submission that has been accepted with several pauses that are quite lengthy in the database. I'll post a link. What I'm getting at is, there is nothing in the rules saying this score should be removed because he paused. Technicality crap coming...the score is in the database, didn't break any written rules and therefore can't be removed for pausing because nothing says he couldn't pause. I guess that is the whole point of this. And lets not forget we are all worried about legal action nowadays.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/202142

    One of the longer pauses is at 1:53:54. Now I just have to assume if the submitter knew pausing wasn't allowed, why did they even submit the run? Not like this pause was going to go unnoticed. You could say they submitted it because there is nothing in the rules about pausing and they didn't think it was wrong. Hell, the current high score submission for that game has basically said that much, and even argued that a score was already accepted with pauses why not his. I absolutely agree with him using that argument. And looking at it now, he is right. Nothing about pausing written anywhere. So I guess we need some TG staffers to clear this up. We know pausing isn't allowed, but show me where it's written that it isn't? Even if it's written in an old TG archive somewhere, this is a different TG and could be argued that things are different now, which they are...insert original hardware argument here.

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  4. Barthax's Avatar

    No pausing is a long-established de facto rule. If it's not present explicitly in the rules it should be assumed to be present. However, the nature of a game (don't know the specifics in this case) can alter the circumstances. Turn-based input (chess, for example) is inherantly in a "paused" state. Many RPGs have a required menu which is accessible via "pause" and so it gets permitted. As Lexmark points out, hide spots (where the game continues despite no user input) are typically permitted (rules may put specifics on such activity).

    The problem with old TG vs. new TG is that lots of these rules were front-and-centre on the web site but that portion of the old web site was not brought to the new TG era so we're left with "the old guard" trying educate the historical policy into an ever-evolving era. Lots of speed runs are now accepted with Continues being used - that would not have happened in the old TG where "No Continues" was just as well-established as "No pausing" or "1 credit" or "1 player only" or "no glitches" and various other de facto rulings.

  5. Barthax's Avatar

    Glad to see "no glitches" and "no continues" made it into the newest version of the guidelines: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:General-Gameplay-Global-Rules-and-Guidelines-for-all-Submissions . No mention of pausing. :(

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  6. thegamer1185's Avatar

    It's thank to ALL of you guys who have been here that I know what I know. We are starting to see why these things not being put in writing somewhere is starting to create issues. Seems like most new people coming to TG are getting hit with hidden "rules" that aren't written anywhere and they don't come back. One of the biggest is people not voting on runs where the hardware isn't shown. I'll be the first to admit, I reject them because THAT is where TG is now when it comes to adjudication, it's just not written.

    To be fair, many new people aren't reading the rules and polices area either. Those rules pages have only been visited 400 times or so. The number of visits is at the bottom of the respective pages.

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  7. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    Glad to see "no glitches" and "no continues" made it into the newest version of the guidelines: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:General-Gameplay-Global-Rules-and-Guidelines-for-all-Submissions . No mention of pausing. :(

    Exactly. This has actually been brought up a few years but nothing gets updated. It's because of @RTM I know that pausing IS allowed for recording purposes. Otherwise I would have never been able to do some of my longer runs where I can only record for 3 hours.

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  8. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    Sorry folks ... NO WAY we can accept a submission that's paused.

    The whole point of MANY of my scores (and hundreds, if not thousands of scores in the database) is that we never paused the game. In fact if I was ever interrupted during a game, I would stop the tape and turn off the game.

    Really ?????

    What's next? You're allowed to have a buddy play some of the game for you too?

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  9. The Evener's Avatar

    Guys we have tracks that require a dog in your lap to play.

    You can create any track with its own customized rule set, including pausing. Please take a gander outside of TG and examine the issue in different gaming communities. What we think of as gospel is not universally shared.


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    Updated 01-11-2020 at 07:04 PM by The Evener
  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Some questions -

    1.) I remember updating the rules to allow the use of external storage devices that do not alter gameplay. However I can not find where I put that update. Does anyone remember where it is? Did it somehow get deleted and lost? I agree that it should be in the general rules, but I seem to remember putting together the proper wording and previously and wanted to find that first before trying to re-write it.

    2.) Let discuss pausing. Should pausing be allowed as a general rule if no clear gameplay or performance advantage can result from the act of pausing in the game? Should pausing be allowed for a specific max time? If so, what would make sense for the max time to be?

    3.) Are there any other "hidden rules" that are not in the wiki that should be codified? If so, what are they?


  11. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Oh does that Tetris game track allow pausing? If so... I'm ok with that.
  12. RaGe's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    No pausing is a long-established de facto rule. If it's not present explicitly in the rules it should be assumed to be present. However, the nature of a game (don't know the specifics in this case) can alter the circumstances. Turn-based input (chess, for example) is inherantly in a "paused" state. Many RPGs have a required menu which is accessible via "pause" and so it gets permitted. As Lexmark points out, hide spots (where the game continues despite no user input) are typically permitted (rules may put specifics on such activity).

    The problem with old TG vs. new TG is that lots of these rules were front-and-centre on the web site but that portion of the old web site was not brought to the new TG era so we're left with "the old guard" trying educate the historical policy into an ever-evolving era. Lots of speed runs are now accepted with Continues being used - that would not have happened in the old TG where "No Continues" was just as well-established as "No pausing" or "1 credit" or "1 player only" or "no glitches" and various other de facto rulings.

    Exactly, what he^ said :)

    I responded to the specific situation in the person's game submission thread.

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  13. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Some questions -

    1.) I remember updating the rules to allow the use of external storage devices that do not alter gameplay. However I can not find where I put that update. Does anyone remember where it is? Did it somehow get deleted and lost? I agree that it should be in the general rules, but I seem to remember putting together the proper wording and previously and wanted to find that first before trying to re-write it.

    2.) Let discuss pausing. Should pausing be allowed as a general rule if no clear gameplay or performance advantage can result from the act of pausing in the game? Should pausing be allowed for a specific max time? If so, what would make sense for the max time to be?

    3.) Are there any other "hidden rules" that are not in the wiki that should be codified? If so, what are they?



    I'd really like to encourage that, as part of this process, that there be minor changes made to the submissions page, and possibly places in the new user process, that specifically link people over to the rules, the new user guide, submission guidelines, or various other pages. It probably doesn't need to be anything big, but to make sure that people are aware of these at the relevant points during the process.

  14. lexmark's Avatar

    Just wondering. Why would you pause. Except as per given marathon rules?

    Pausing to me just gives some peeps opportunity to exploit "think time"...for example, there's a tough situation coming up, "I'll just pause so that I can have a think about what to do next"?

    Just thinking out loud.


    john


    .


  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    Guys we have tracks that require a dog in your lap to play.

    You can create any track with its own customized rule set, including pausing. Please take a gander outside of TG and examine the issue in different gaming communities. What we think of as gospel is not universally shared.


    woh woh woh, if we're gonna claim dogs arent wolves then i'm gonna claim pomeranians arent dogs. they've evolved past the simple dog

    to the issue at hand, by far the most imporant thing is "same rules for everyone" so i really dont care if people make new track obviously, or even if people convince admin to change rules on an old track -- as long as the old track is empty and so all scores have the same rules going forward.

    cant change global rules, so any pausing allowed would have to added to each such track explicilty

    now as to the decision to add pause or not -- again your track do what you want. as for tg tracks, whatever let the competitors decide. but consider this, people seem to want pausing for bathroom breaks. there seems to be concern the game without pause just turns into how long can you go without going to the bathroom. well with pause people wil then just complain it turns into how long you can go without sleeping

    oh another thing, i played asteroids, a game that peaks at 6 lives, so no more than 40 second breaks, and no pauses for 40 hours. i found, shall we say, creative ways to deal with bathroom breaks. you wanna marathon? part of the challenge is physical including finding ways to deal with bathroom breaks. i have no problem laughing and crassly telling people how i did it, but i choose not to put that in print here. you want the story, you call me.

  16. thegamer1185's Avatar

    You can make any reason for pausing. Most of my reasons would be I need to go straighten the kids up, but since it's "verbally" not allowed, I tell them to come to me which means the punishment is drastically diminished than me doing anything off camera, haha.

    As for Jace's questions. I think what has always been spoken as the rule should be the rule. Pausing is simply not allowed for any reason other than recording reasons (which already has it's own verbally needed rules attached to it like some sort of continuity video) and accidental pausing. Anything else could just be taken advantage of in certain situations.

    I can't be sure if you wrote anything @Jace Hall , but you definitely stated as much about external drives being allowed in a State of the Galaxies episode. That may be what you are remembering.

    https://view.vzaar.com/20800975/player

    1:15:00 is roughly the start of the soft mod conversation. 1:22:45 is where you essentially give your answer between old TG and new TG.

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    Updated 01-11-2020 at 08:56 PM by thegamer1185
  17. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I also believe it has just become commonplace that adjudicators are now expecting a boot up for a submission to be accepted into the database. I was going to mention something about the actual console itself being shown, but it seems the boot up is more important than anything. Maybe a few tweeks in the evidence package area is needed as well.

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  18. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    The following statement is based on "pausing" being the act of hitting a button to freeze the game state rather than maneuvering to a "safe spot" or the game being in an idle state as part of its programming (like River Raid, Circus Atari, Chopper Command, etc., after a death):

    While I think this is a great debate to have, I can say for 100% certainty that I will *never* knowingly vote yes on any submission where a pause has occurred if pausing is not explicitly allowed as per the rule set. Not ever, regardless of the outcome of this debate. Even if the global rules ultimately say, "All pausing under any conditions whatsoever are allowed", it will STILL either be an abstention or no-vote from me on the submission. If you want to pause your game, then submit your scores to HighScore.com. (Not a criticism of HS ... Im an active member). This isn't the place for that nonsense.


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  19. lexmark's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake


    i found, shall we say, creative ways to deal with bathroom breaks. you wanna marathon? part of the challenge is physical including finding ways to deal with bathroom breaks. i have no problem laughing and crassly telling people how i did it, but i choose not to put that in print here. you want the story, you call me.

    C'mon...spill the beans. How did you do it? You're not allowed to keep secrets unless you play zookeeper. Apparently!



    john


    .

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  20. lexmark's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland

    The following statement is based on "pausing" being the act of hitting a button to freeze the game state rather than maneuvering to a "safe spot" or the game being in an idle state as part of its programming (like River Raid, Circus Atari, Chopper Command, etc., after a death):

    While I think this is a great debate to have, I can say for 100% certainty that I will *never* knowingly vote yes on any submission where a pause has occurred if pausing is not explicitly allowed as per the rule set. Not ever, regardless of the outcome of this debate. Even if the global rules ultimately say, "All pausing under any conditions whatsoever are allowed", it will STILL either be an abstention or no-vote from me on the submission. If you want to pause your game, then submit your scores to HighScore.com. (Not a criticism of HS ... Im an active member). This isn't the place for that nonsense.



    Good post, Garrett. You said what I wasnt articulate enough to say!


    john


    .

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