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thegamer1185
01-11-2020 at 05:58 PM
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Pausing - Is it allowed?

So it has been brought to the attention of some of us adjudicators that a run has been accepted into the TG database that has several pauses in it longer than 15 seconds. While I have always been told that pausing for any reason is not allowed, (except for recording purposes...which isn't written anywhere either) there is now a submitter who is using this already accepted submission that has pausing in it to pass there own. Rightfully so, equal across the board and I have no issue with them using that as reason to allow the submission to clear through adjudication.

Here is the issue. There is literally nothing in any TG policy about pausing.....except when it comes to tracks specifically labeled as "Marathon" which rule 3.0.B says pausing is not permitted. That is it. Nothing anywhere says you can't pause for any reason. While you could use the "spirit of the game" argument, which is a completely unclear discussion of it's own based on the individual/game/other circumstance, technically pausing is allowed then right? If the rules don't say anything about it, it's not against them.

@Jace Hall , @RTM "> @GibGirl "> @starsoldier1 "> @MyOwnWorstEnemy "> @timmell "> @RaGe , @Desidious , @Marcade , @starcrytas , @Barthax . Tag anyone else who used to be a ref or has any experience with this the more thoughts the better.

It's been brought up about 6 times over the last 3 years that the policies are out of date for what is allowed in this day and age of TG. I really think these rules and others need updating sooner than later. For example...pretty much all of my submissions should be rejected because I use Everdrive cartridges, AKA NOT ORIGINAL HARDWARE. I break rule 1 right out of the gate. Yep, can't call me a hypocrite because I just called myself out. However, Everdrives ARE accepted. Lots to discuss here.

This is rule 1 for reference. What needs changing? Mods are allowed, Everdrives, non original controllers, I can't comment on Arcade stuff but I know things have been changed a little on some of them parts wise.

"Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

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Comments
  1. Ninglendo's Avatar

    From the guidelines page...

    "The use of "glitches" or "glitch tactics" that defeat the generally accepted understanding of the spirit of the game / or reasonable interpretation of the intention of the game's designers are disallowed as a general rule. "

    Better get your dispute shoes on and dispute all of those top DK Jr. scores since I'm pretty sure glitching a fruit drop on the hideout to get double points isn't what the devs intended ;) Point being yeah it's a universal rule...kinda. It was applied on a case by case basis which is how I feel pausing should be handled.

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  2. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Also another can of worms here...

    "Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

    So what about all those subs that used a Genesis controller for Atari 2600 games? What about repro controllers? Original game software does this mean no more Everdrives? Does this mean that all subs going forward require people to show the console, controller, and game? What if I use my Super Famicom controller for my SNES? All these questions will be asked or demanded in future subs which is gonna be a mess.

  3. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    Also another can of worms here...

    "Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

    So what about all those subs that used a Genesis controller for Atari 2600 games? What about repro controllers? Original game software does this mean no more Everdrives? Does this mean that all subs going forward require people to show the console, controller, and game? What if I use my Super Famicom controller for my SNES? All these questions will be asked or demanded in future subs which is gonna be a mess.


    Jace highlighted that this text had previously been changed but no longer reflects the change he remembers making.

  4. RTM's Avatar

    "So it has been brought to the attention of some of us adjudicators that a run has been accepted into the TG database that has several pauses in it longer than 15 seconds"

    What run was this ? And where (if anywhere) is there a comment about pausing for more than 15 seconds ?

    The original TG marathon rules (generally intended for the arcade platform) had provisions for "breaks" and even those rules have evolved over the years.

    The only time "pausing" (not a break) was ever mentioned was in the provision governing VHS submissions with modern home console titles that had a pause feature so as to allow for a clean break between one VHS tape and the other with zero transitional differences. But THAT policy is not moot since there are no more VHS submissions allowed...and even then it was only utilized perhaps less than five times from the pre-2006 era for console submission purposes.


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  5. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Thought of another "hidden rule" while replying to the puyo puyo thread, Turbo functions are not allowed. I don't believe it's written anywhere that you can't use turbo functions. Lots of these little rules floating around that you would only know from being here awhile.

  6. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    Thought of another "hidden rule" while replying to the puyo puyo thread, Turbo functions are not allowed. I don't believe it's written anywhere that you can't use turbo functions. Lots of these little rules floating around that you would only know from being here awhile.


    ... and auto fire which is not supplied by the game (exception: TurboGrafX-16).

  7. Desidious's Avatar

    I love that this thread is basically showing rules that new members should already know but are really not shown. Talk about all inclusive.

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  8. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    Also another can of worms here...

    "Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

    So what about all those subs that used a Genesis controller for Atari 2600 games? What about repro controllers? Original game software does this mean no more Everdrives? Does this mean that all subs going forward require people to show the console, controller, and game? What if I use my Super Famicom controller for my SNES? All these questions will be asked or demanded in future subs which is gonna be a mess.

    Yeah, this rabbit hole goes deep.

    Everdrive games that use mappers vs don't use mappers. Controllers made by the console manufacturer but not stock (NES Advantage). Controllers made by third parties but licensed by the manufacturer. Repro controllers with a license (Retro-Bit Genesis or Saturn controllers). 2600 joystick on the 7800 for a 2600 game? For a 7800 game?

    Re-capped consoles. A/V modded consoles. Xbox with the clock cap removed. Prototype games that were never released.

    And there are many, many cases that have submissions that have been accepted. And I know from past discussions, there are even philosophical differences. I feel the entire goal should be an even playing field, and thus am happy to be more flexible, and focus on where people might get unfair advantages over others. I know others are more about what can be done specifically on the original hardware - so some of that debate won't ever go away.

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  9. Desidious's Avatar

    Retro Fighters are making some of the best N64 controllers you can find for the price, especially if you don't want to spend a bunch on a Hori. It has a turbo button that the 64 controller didn't have. Kinds makes you want to check controllers huh?

    Can't tell you how many 2600 subs of mine were accepted with me using the Genesis controller. So sue me, I don't think the 2600 controller is good for lefties and my hands hurt only moments after using it.

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  10. thegamer1185's Avatar

    How would they already know that a sega controller is allowed for use on an Atari, or that Everdrives are allowed, or that certain mods are allowed, that replays are not allowed as evidence, that they can't pause and/or use auto-fire if there is nothing anywhere stating you can/can't use them, that we expect to see a boot up in your submissions to get accepted? I think we have all seen a few discussions that ultimately conclude with "if it's not in the rules you CAN'T do it, then you can". Almost every new person in the last few years has had one of these things get them, and I can't remember many of them ever submitting again. That is an issue.

    It's one thing if we have all this stuff actually written in the rules and policies area and they just didn't bother to look before they submitted. It's a completely different thing when we "almost always" direct them to the rules and polices area after their first submission is rejected and none of these hidden rules are there. It's actually happening now with these Puyo Puyo Tetris submissions. Sean is right, whether we agree with it or not. Nothing about pausing, another submission was already accepted with pausing, why shouldn't his be? Really no excuse for it TBH. It's a hole in the system and needs fixed.

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    Updated 01-13-2020 at 11:25 AM by thegamer1185
  11. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I'm all for continuing to do what we are doing, there just needs to be some sort of documentation for fairness as @GibGirl is pointing out.

  12. Desidious's Avatar

    Sadly, the usual response will always be we have to look at it on a case by case basis. It will always mainly be on the shoulders of the adjudicating group.

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  13. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious

    Sadly, the usual response will always be we have to look at it on a case by case basis. It will always mainly be on the shoulders of the adjudicating group.

    Almost nailed that word for word dude, haha.

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  14. GibGirl's Avatar

    And all this is why I asked @Jace Hall in that last SOTG that happened a while back what the process would be to address things like this going forward. How does "the community" and "Twin Galaxies" work together to determine what the rules should be, make sure they get documented with appropriate language, and put somewhere to make sure they're introduced to new users and easy to find by everyone?

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  15. Desidious's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    Almost nailed that word for word dude, haha.


    I have my moments, however small they are.

  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious

    Retro Fighters are making some of the best N64 controllers you can find for the price, especially if you don't want to spend a bunch on a Hori. It has a turbo button that the 64 controller didn't have. Kinds makes you want to check controllers huh?

    Can't tell you how many 2600 subs of mine were accepted with me using the Genesis controller. So sue me, I don't think the 2600 controller is good for lefties and my hands hurt only moments after using it.

    you can fairly easy rewite an atari joystick to be right handed. open it up, and just reconnect which direction goes to what input. then you can hold the controller facing any direction you like

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  17. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake


    you can fairly easy rewite an atari joystick to be right handed. open it up, and just reconnect which direction goes to what input. then you can hold the controller facing any direction you like


    But then it's modded and no longer original!!

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  18. Barthax's Avatar

    Factory Default and Default Settings: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Factory-Default-and-Default-Settings

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  19. SallowDay's Avatar

    Is this thread the official discussion for whether or not pausing should be permitted?

  20. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Use official loosely. I just hope this one actually has a result. But yes, I think it's been discussed here more than anywhere at the moment.

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