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thegamer1185
01-11-2020 at 05:58 PM
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Pausing - Is it allowed?

So it has been brought to the attention of some of us adjudicators that a run has been accepted into the TG database that has several pauses in it longer than 15 seconds. While I have always been told that pausing for any reason is not allowed, (except for recording purposes...which isn't written anywhere either) there is now a submitter who is using this already accepted submission that has pausing in it to pass there own. Rightfully so, equal across the board and I have no issue with them using that as reason to allow the submission to clear through adjudication.

Here is the issue. There is literally nothing in any TG policy about pausing.....except when it comes to tracks specifically labeled as "Marathon" which rule 3.0.B says pausing is not permitted. That is it. Nothing anywhere says you can't pause for any reason. While you could use the "spirit of the game" argument, which is a completely unclear discussion of it's own based on the individual/game/other circumstance, technically pausing is allowed then right? If the rules don't say anything about it, it's not against them.

@Jace Hall , @RTM "> @GibGirl "> @starsoldier1 "> @MyOwnWorstEnemy "> @timmell "> @RaGe , @Desidious , @Marcade , @starcrytas , @Barthax . Tag anyone else who used to be a ref or has any experience with this the more thoughts the better.

It's been brought up about 6 times over the last 3 years that the policies are out of date for what is allowed in this day and age of TG. I really think these rules and others need updating sooner than later. For example...pretty much all of my submissions should be rejected because I use Everdrive cartridges, AKA NOT ORIGINAL HARDWARE. I break rule 1 right out of the gate. Yep, can't call me a hypocrite because I just called myself out. However, Everdrives ARE accepted. Lots to discuss here.

This is rule 1 for reference. What needs changing? Mods are allowed, Everdrives, non original controllers, I can't comment on Arcade stuff but I know things have been changed a little on some of them parts wise.

"Unless otherwise specified in a game leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original controllers, on original hardware, with original game software. "

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  1. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl


    I did NOT suggest we make changes to a rule. I simply tossed it out there as an idea. Sometimes it feels like merely the idea that maybe something could be changed is enough to get people to react negatively.

    How dare you suggest that you suggesting things is enough for people to react negatively!!! You need to CHANGE your attitude!!! I fully expect a negative response...or a like. You do what you feel you need to do :P

    As for the blind voters, what can really be done? You already lose CR, and apparently you lose the submission point as well, or at least @Barthax loses them for us, hehe. Him and his negative SP posts always give me a good chuckle. In order to punish them you have to actually prove they did it. How do you do that? What do you think the punishment should be?

    The only real way to solve the blind voting problem is to make it a mandatory requirement to actually post a comment in the submission thread before you can even click on Yes or No. Then there is a public record of who actually voted and we can publicly lynch them. I see almost all of us hating that idea but we would then at least know who the blind voters are.

    The other issue is that CR means nothing after 4000 points. I think that is the value needed to dispute. Anything higher just means you have more voting power, or so it would seem until you consider that it's countered by the fact there still needs to be a certain number of votes to accept or reject a run. So CR really has no value after 4000pts. At least that's how I've always understood CR and it's impact on adjudication. So losing CR after 4000pts doesn't really do much, and even if you did someone would probably dispute a score for you. So losing CR is kind of a moot point.

    You could attack their SP's. Of course the value of submission points is based on the person. Some people submit a **** load, therefore the value of them is higher. Some people don't submit at all and a SP punishment would mean nothing to them. So that really won't work.

    I just accept (and believe) that if we didn't have blind voters out there, most of my submissions and other games that aren't high profile would never be pushed through. They just wouldn't. I hate to say that we need them, but I think we do need some of them...and we can't really keep them from doing it anyway.

    Updated 01-14-2020 at 12:09 AM by thegamer1185
  2. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN



    The problem I have with that on it's own is that the people who blind voted on the first sub aren't punished for blind voting. Someone should be taking a credibility hit for the Alvin Garcia, the guy literally pauses the game to play on his cell phone at one point.


    You can't stop the blind voting if you just change the rules and protect their credibility when they get it wrong.


    While my TGSAP heart fully agrees, I see a flaw: there's no rule (currently) to say they adjudicated wrongly (cycle around to the beginning of this thread, ad nauseum).

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  3. spectre's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark

    Just wondering. Why would you pause. Except as per given marathon rules?

    Pausing to me just gives some peeps opportunity to exploit "think time"...for example, there's a tough situation coming up, "I'll just pause so that I can have a think about what to do next"?

    Just thinking out loud.


    john


    .


    In an intense and stressful game you could pause to compose yourself, calm down and get ready for the intensity to continue.

  4. SallowDay's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN



    You basically suggested we make changes to a global rule that has existed forever because one submission that broke the rules got accepted and another one is in adjudication. What did you expect?

    The right way to handle this Puyo Puyo thing is to either reject them both or make a track that allows the pauses and move the scores.

    I'm legit surprised that nobody has disputed the Alvin Garcia submission with the pause. I guess nobody watched it and got burned with a credibility hit?


    You can't say it existed forever if it wasn't even in writing for, ostensibly, years. You think Alvin's the only one? His is just the only one that got noticed.

    You are digging your heels in with respect to tradition. I get your and others' emotional fervency, but I beseech you not to take the opposing side personally or, worse yet, think anyone wants to invalidate your past work.


    The majority is in favor of no pause simply with respect to tradition but I hope whoever the final authority is looks at this as a matter of which argument made the most sense as opposed to which had the most votes.

  5. SallowDay's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by spectre



    In an intense and stressful game you could pause to compose yourself, calm down and get ready for the intensity to continue.


    Or to ingest water. Especially for those of us in dry climates, going 2+ hrs without water isn't ideal.

    Dealing with early water poisioning or dehydration isn't supposed to be part of the challenge of tetris. No one would be watching that wr run for the "I wonder how long he can go without peeing" factor either.



  6. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay



    Or to ingest water. Especially for those of us in dry climates, going 2+ hrs without water isn't ideal.

    Dealing with early water poisioning or dehydration isn't supposed to be part of the challenge of tetris. No one would be watching that wr run for the "I wonder how long he can go without peeing" factor either.



    When is your birthday? I have the perfect gift for you.


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  7. Max's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay

    You can't say it existed forever if it wasn't even in writing for, ostensibly, years.

    It existed forever, even during the recent time it wasn't in writing. It became understandably confusing (in particular anyone new to TG) when it was not in writing anywhere.

    That this isn't in writing is the only reason Alvin's submission isn't likely to be disputed. If someone does dispute Alvin's score, and that is quite probable if TG doesn't step in sooner than later, it is likely that any dispute won't result in the score being removed. At best, and as already suggested, his track would be moved to a new "pause OK" track as a result of any dispute. My efforts on another wall post is to streamline this and just have TG move it asap as it's very clear what happened here. Why go through all the efforts of a dispute?

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay

    You think Alvin's the only one? His is just the only one that got noticed.

    I think everyone would agree that Alvin's isn't the only one and that some have likely passed through unnoticed.

    I'm assuming I've misread that you appear to believe that two wrongs make a right. In your particular instance, a mistake was made and at this point you know all the details surrounding this mistake. There are no unknowns here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay

    You are digging your heels in with respect to tradition. I get your and others' emotional fervency, but I beseech you not to take the opposing side personally or, worse yet, think anyone wants to invalidate your past work.

    You seem to be digging your heels in despite having the knowledge that anyone may create a track covering any rule set and play on it. There are no restrictions for track creation whatsoever. None.

    Absolutely nobody is forcing you to play under an existing rule set you don't want to play under. Nobody.

    You are free and clear to play any game, in any manner you wish.


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  8. The Evener's Avatar

    To echo Max with some revision, why not just take the existing Puyo Puyo track and amend the track rules on pausing? There's four competitors on the track, and the top two used pausing. Change it now while the track is still relatively new and see if there are howls of outrage from the other two submitters, or maybe they'll go "co thanks for the clarification I'll keep that in mind for my next submission to the track"

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  9. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Jokes aside, I'll try speak to my own experience here. My longest game is only 8 hours. I know that 8 hours is nothing compared to the accomplishments that other gamers have done, but was a big deal for me.

    I knew going in to it that it would take about that long, so to prepare for it I:

    -selected the day of my attempt in advance

    -set out enough food and water for my animals

    -accepted the fact that I would have to clean up dog **** and piss when I was done

    -ate and drank a minimal breakfast

    -went to the bathroom right before starting

    -had a bottle of water and snacks with me, and partook of it minimally.

    -would alternate between leaning forward, leaning backward, and standing.

    It worked out perfectly for me. At no point during my game was I physically in distress of any sort.


    I will echo the comments of some of the other members: We do want you, and any other new members, to be active participants here and to have a good time doing it. I totally understand the position you are in given the submission that was accepted before yours, as well as the embarrassingly scant rules and guides for new users here. Full disclosure: I have not watched either performance, but from what I am gathering, the submission before yours should not have been accepted, and only was because there are a few members with high credibility that frequently vote yes with out actually viewing the entire performance. That is completely unfair to yourself and the other player. Unfortunately I doubt this is the first time something like this has happened.

    I agree with you that just because something has always been a certain way is not a valid reason alone to continue with a process. However it is also not a valid reason alone to change that process. Only if the reason it was started in the first place was found to be invalid would there be a reason to change it. We would also have to evaluate the impact to previously accepted scores before changing it. As a blanket rule for all TG submissions, no I absolutely do not think pausing should be allowed. To adjust it for this particular track, I see that as more reasonable, but also creating a new track to allow for pauses is even much more reasonable To put it a different way, if submissions using Game Genie codes suddenly got accepted and players were putting forth huge scores as a result, it is not fair to the previous players who were not using a Game Genie. I think we can agree that is more straight forward example of "the way things have always been" than pausing is, but both illustrate an advantage that other players did not have and create an unlevel playing field.

    Creating a new track that allows for pausing is a great solution to this problem. Players can choose to submit to whichever track best fits their abilities and preferences. But the fact of the matter is, your submission and the one before you were submitted to a track where, clearly spelled out not, pausing is not accepted. It is what it is. I think most everybody on these threads is supporting you. Upholding the present rules is not a negative act against you at all. We want to see you succeed here, and we want your performance to be accepted to the correct track. Here is another example. Multiple times players have submitted a emulated performance to a hardware track instead of an emu track. Despite my personal opinions of how there should not be a difference, right now there is so I would try to encourage the player to submit to the correct track.


    Welcome to TG, I'm sorry it was not the welcome you were hoping for. Again, I assure you that the majority of the community is on your side in wanting you to be successful here. Part of that success is making sure we are accountable to each other, to the gamers before and after us, and to the rules of the games and the site.

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  10. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138


    When is your birthday? I have the perfect gift for you.


    I hereby charge you with Joke Hijacking.

    And bad taste in beverages...

    :P


    You kid, but really...it IS a real workaround...combine that with a(lol)Texas catheter(I'm serious, look it up...), you'd almost never have to get up.


  11. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl


    I did NOT suggest we make changes to a rule. I simply tossed it out there as an idea. Sometimes it feels like merely the idea that maybe something could be changed is enough to get people to react negatively.

    And I disagreed with it and simply said "No." which isn't being negative at all nor was @EVN being negative. If disagreeing with an idea you had in the most simple way possible is negative to you then I dunno what to tell you.
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  12. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Think we are starting to get side tracked, myself included. I'll just ask this and lets get this matter settled since we are now starting to go round and round.

    1. Is everyone OK with moving the Puyo Puyo scores over to a newly created track that allows pausing since there is nothing in the Global rules or otherwise stating pausing isn't allowed? This would solve the lack of pausing rule not being written, the scores remain under a track that would make them valid.

    2. @Jace Hall , I believe the consensus is that Pausing under any normal circumstance unless stated otherwise is not allowed and should be written into the rules somewhere.

    Does everyone agree with these two statements, phrasing of the rules pending of course?


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  13. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    this is epic

  14. Ninglendo's Avatar

    My suggestion is reject the current sub in the queue and dispute the other one. The people that blind voted the original will take a cred hit and it wont set a bad precedent. That precedent being if someone blatantly breaks rules that they could just simply say create a track for me and move it there.

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  15. starcrytas's Avatar

    My suggestion is to allow pausing to check your current score or time.

    In Hyrule Warriors Legends, I pause to check my time to know if I need to reset or not.

    I believe on Yoshi's Story, you can pause to check your score. That way you can see if you're on a good pace or not.


    Then you have speedruns where pausing can hurt your time.

  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    to the issue of documentation i remember another time complaining about documentation and lack of global rules clarity. what i thought was positive was adding a section for global rules. every track had a global rule section added, yet the global rule section was blank and therefore useless. if programming was able to add the global rule section would it be so hard to also populate it?

    even in new tracks the global rules apply unless otherwise stated, having global rules default in -- with the option to edit, would help new track creators as well

    I know i know theres only so much programming can do. but i've noticed they had time to rename everything in the menus again. i'm assuming that also went with a discussion and debate of what the renname should be, as well as programming time doing it. i get resources are limited, but maybe spend less resources and cnonstantly changing, rechanging, throwing out the changes and chaging again of cosmetics and instead focus on many of the things on the list that there isnt time for?

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  17. SallowDay's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138


    When is your birthday? I have the perfect gift for you.



    Pathetic childishness, my incorrigible friend.

  18. Desidious's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay



    Pathetic childishness, my incorrigible friend.


    Stick around. You've seen nothing remotely pathetic or childish yet, sir.

  19. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    The only real way to solve the blind voting problem is to make it a mandatory requirement to actually post a comment in the submission thread before you can even click on Yes or No. Then there is a public record of who actually voted and we can publicly lynch them. I see almost all of us hating that idea but we would then at least know who the blind voters are



    RTM REPLY - after all that's happened within these forums over the past few years I think even more "public lynchings" is a very bad idea. If that's going to be the inevitable outcome of eliminating "blind voting" then the trade-off is not worth it, not by a long shot.


    There IS a way, potentially, to eliminate this...but the programming necessary would have to be extensive.

    I'm sure some of you by now have seen passwords based on a page/paragraph/word (and maybe letter) in a 200+ page book where you either have the book or you don't. Using that loosely, here is the possible way to circumvent blind voting, more or less...but it works best for lengthier submissions as you will see.

    Each submission contains a number of elements to it...scores at the end of levels, where lives were lost, possibly time stamps. If a number of random questions per submission were crafted that forced an adjudicator to watch the performance to learn the correct answer...maybe a good 20 crafted questions per performance and a random 3 questions are presented to the adjudicator only after the differential between the computer time when the performance was clicked on to the end of the performance time stamp is within reason...in other words, you have to watch it...but there's no way to know if someone just let it ran unattended (which is no different than blindly watching)

    So, now you have some Q&A to correctly respond to else you are not authorized to adjudicate.

    The problem is this would clearly not work for a "Dragster" performance or likely anything under the 5 minute duration.

    It's just a thought, so please...no public lynching :)

  20. Max's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM


    So, now you have some Q&A to correctly respond to else you are not authorized to adjudicate.

    The blind voting reference isn't related to authenticating users, rather it's related to users voting without watching or fully watching a submission.

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