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thegamer1185
08-31-2021 at 09:07 AM
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Passwords....

Okay, now that my submissions have been rejected, I suppose I can finally post this for the community to comment before wasting possibly more of my time. As a general rule, Passwords are not allowed unless rules say you can use them. Older games use them to retrieve your previous plays. Should this be allowed and a the rule amended for such a situation? Not to many games from the old days allowed you to unlock certain things and didn't require you to use a password to retrieve them.

These two games are the ones in question. The first game is Top Gear Pocket. https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/top-gear-pocket/game-boy-game-boy-color If you notice, the rules don't say you can use passwords, however the rules state you may use any levelled up car. So it's either someone spends many hours getting the best car just to use it in a single sitting, recording everything showing how you got it because people essentially require a boot up so you can't just get the car and reboot because you would lose the car. OR you unlock the car and use the password you get to retrieve it after the boot up. Before I submitted to these tracks, I asked the community if I could use passwords to retrieve my unlocked vehicles, nobody at the time said no, several said yes. I submitted, and they all got accepted. Everything seemed all good.

The second game uses the exact same scenario as above, I never asked about the passwords because it had already been done in the game above, but all scores were argued about using a password and ultimately rejected. https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/international-rally/game-boy-game-boy-color

Passwords used in this situation, IMO, do not match up with what is written in TG rules which state "cheat codes, cheat devices, in game codes and continues are not allowed". Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start or invincibility, cheat devices would be using a gameshark, and an in game code would be inputting the Konami code (which gives you an advantage with extra lives). Using a password simply to retrieve unlocked data, again IMO, does not fall under these rules nor does it give any player an advantage over another. That is the purpose of not allowing passwords, to prevent someone from having the advantage. The only reason I had an advantage in these games is because I spent the time to unlock the cars, just like any modern day game does now. If I choose to unlock the best car and use it, that's on me. If I want to use the first car out of the box and use it, that's on me. Simply put, we all can get these cars by playing the game.

I would like the community to give their thoughts on this since I would like to have these games tracks (and others if I find them) to allow for passwords to be used to retrieve your unlocked vehicles/data. Something does need to be decided because I've already got scores using this tactic accepted on one game, because people said do it, but then the other they got rejected. So my scores either need disputed, pissing people off because they lose CR over something nobody really argued, or we allow these types of passwords because no advantage is given to any player.

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  1. Barthax's Avatar

    Jace has often indicated that:

    1) Old rules will not be altered, only clarified.

    2) If you don't like the old rules, just create a new track instead.


    Passwords used in this situation, IMO, do not match up with what is written in TG rules which state "cheat codes, cheat devices, in game codes and continues are not allowed". Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start or invincibility, cheat devices would be using a gameshark, and an in game code would be inputting the Konami code (which gives you an advantage with extra lives). Using a password simply to retrieve unlocked data, again IMO, does not fall under these rules nor does it give any player an advantage over another. That is the purpose of not allowing passwords, to prevent someone from having the advantage.

    Various games use different terminology for the same thing. What is a cheat in one game is a passcode in another and a password in yet another and an unlock code in yet others. They are interchangeable for ruling.

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    Updated 08-31-2021 at 09:13 AM by Barthax
  2. sdwyer138's Avatar

    "Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start"

    Or having a really good car from the start?


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  3. thegamer1185's Avatar

    They have altered rules plenty of times, on many games. There is no competition on newly created tracks, why add the clutter when the track is already there? I have asked for clarity, but we aren't getting a response in the clarity from someone in charge. I think I have make it clear how I think those rules are interpreted, just as you have. So you neither agree nor disagree with what I said then? Some rules are simply written poorly or don't consider all the options. These older games didn't consider this option.

    @Jace Hall @SincerelyFranny could you please clarify the no passwords rule? I was under the impression it was simply to keep things on a level playing field. Using a password has nothing to do with any cheat whatsoever in this situation, it's data retrieval. If that is cheating, I'll use the argument I've been using for awhile now; no one can use any autosaved data to retrieve data, they must start a new profile every time they submit a score because it's unfair they spent the time to unlock the best cars and they got saved while I didn't take the time to do it??. It makes no sense. I think it's ridiculous in games like Tiger Woods they actually give you the password to unlock all courses so you can play them right away in the rules, but you can't retrieve your data that isn't saved via battery/autosave using a password? As I stated above, I really don't think all the options were considered with the no password rule.

    *Steel toed booting the hell out of this password horse at this point*

  4. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138

    "Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start"

    Or having a really good car from the start?


    That was good, I'll give you that haha. It wasn't from the start to me, it took a lot of hours getting it. On that point though, isn't that what autosaves do for newer consoles? Allow you to use a really good car on earlier tracks when you normally wouldn't have them?

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    Updated 08-31-2021 at 09:30 AM by thegamer1185
  5. swaggers's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138

    "Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start"

    Or having a really good car from the start?



    He's not asking about a cheat code. He's talking about save codes. Something that should be treated completely different. These are codes the game gives you to continue your progress in games and systems with no battery save functionality.


    I believe these types of codes should be allowed but also the individual game rules should handle to use and specify how the codes are acquired and used.

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  6. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    OK, lemme try to ask questions so I can discern what has prolly been said clearly already.

    :P

    Kyle-

    OK, so you are saying, on that game, since passwords aren't allowed, the ONLY way to get the fastest car is to keep the system powered on and grind for hours to get the fastest car, is that right?

    If that's so, I'm a little more on your side of this "argument"(ahh, we're just sussing it out, like Adults)than I expected I would be.

    Tricky, tho, like Barthax said-one person's Password is another person's Cheat Code.


    I'm not supporting a side.

    I DO think there's a difference in non battery saved games that allow you to obtain faster racecars later and fantasy adventure games that you have to earn stronger weapons later, it's different objectives-the first gives you optimal conditions to complete a basic task, the second gives an advantage in places of the game where an advantage shouldn't be there.


    Tricky subject, for sure, no opinion, just offering words, as usual.

    Sorry.


  7. Barthax's Avatar

    TG is about a level playing field to compare scores across. If someone is willing to put in hours of effort to unlock something from the same start point as everyone else, they're entitled to achieve the accolade the extra effort provides. If old TG rules permitted passwords/codes/whatever, the rules would normally state the specific passwords/codes permitted for this sort of game in the rules so that everyone would begin with the same option at the start of their session.

    Stating that "because I've played the game for several hours in a previous session, I'm entitled to skip a bit" is the same as a point-bung in a marathon. "I've played 12 hours of Robotron in a previous sitting, so I'm entitled to start every new session at 12 million points". For working with a level playing field for all, this sort of argument makes no sense as it is just using "entitlement" to avoid rules.

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  8. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    TG is about a level playing field to compare scores across. If someone is willing to put in hours of effort to unlock something from the same start point as everyone else, they're entitled to achieve the accolade the extra effort provides. If old TG rules permitted passwords/codes/whatever, the rules would normally state the specific passwords/codes permitted for this sort of game in the rules so that everyone would begin with the same option at the start of their session.

    Stating that "because I've played the game for several hours in a previous session, I'm entitled to skip a bit" is the same as a point-bung in a marathon. "I've played 12 hours of Robotron in a previous sitting, so I'm entitled to start every new session at 12 million points". For working with a level playing field for all, this sort of argument makes no sense as it is just using "entitlement" to avoid rules.


    See, that's why this is so tough.

    I can't argue against any of this either.

  9. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Marathon is a different situation. Not even compatible to this situation. Hence, in this specific situation, I think it should be allowed. It is no different than auto save. You did spend more time playing to unlock the cars, your game saves it, you are entitled to it. I played this game longer, unlocked the cars, no auto save so I'm not entitled to it?? That is the only difference we are discussing here.

    @Rogerpoco , correct, you have to play many hours to get the car before you could use it to submit. You use a password to unlock it again. There is a reason I didn't show my password in those submissions. Damn right I'm entitled to it, haha. I earned it, I expect everyone else who want to use those cars to earn it too. If that isn't level playing field I don't know what is.

  10. swaggers's Avatar

    If anything this opens up the accepted scores in Top Gear Pocket for dispute. As JMB states quite clearly in his sub: "The game powers on with 3 courses available and it does not save any progress. To get to the other courses I had to go through some championships to unlock them because passwords can't be used since they are not explicitly allowed in the rules. That's why the recording is so long. "

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  11. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by swaggers

    If anything this opens up the accepted scores in Top Gear Pocket for dispute. As JMB states quite clearly in his sub: "The game powers on with 3 courses available and it does not save any progress. To get to the other courses I had to go through some championships to unlock them because passwords can't be used since they are not explicitly allowed in the rules. That's why the recording is so long. "

    Also probably the reason these games don't have many competitors on them as well. You have to plays hours just to submit to the thing. I don't think the password rule consider these games, that's all I can say. If these rules were made in the early stages of the NES era, it makes sense why these types of games wouldn't have been considered

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  12. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    TG is about a level playing field to compare scores across. If someone is willing to put in hours of effort to unlock something from the same start point as everyone else, they're entitled to achieve the accolade the extra effort provides.

    That's exactly what I did. I started the game, spent the hours to unlock everything, and used my entitlement to achieve my scores because I put in the effort to get those cars. I wrote down the password, and used it to have more attempts on each track. I earned the entitlement to do so, from the same starting point as you would have too.

    I believe the password rules didn't consider this option. I can't help the game doesn't have autosave and rules are rules no matter how old they were when written and technology changed making some rules possibly needing updating or obsolete. Updating in this instance, original hardware rule would be obsolete :p

  13. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    That's exactly what I did. I started the game, spent the hours to unlock everything, and used my entitlement to achieve my scores because I put in the effort to get those cars. I wrote down the password, and used it to have more attempts on each track. I earned the entitlement to do so, from the same starting point as you would have too.

    While I’m sure you did this, there is no way to prove that you did unless your submission package shows all the other game play and the password being given.

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  14. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Just a few observations:

    These tracks don't have many competitors on them because they're late stage games (created after initial console popularity had waned) on an offshoot console, and not named tetris...If the length of time was really the main issue, then there would be significantly more submissions on games like Wave Race or World Circuit Series that don't require hours of play...

    I'm having trouble thinking of games where the length of time to get to a certain point in the game allows for a password (or any iteration of that term) to be used without it explicitly being stated in the rules. Are there any on gameboy? (I'm asking this seriously)

    There's a lot of conjecture about what the purpose of passwords are in relation to modern games and autosave and the like. Personally, I've never been a fan of cross-console comparisons as I think it creates too much of a 20/20 hindsight with rose colored glasses scenario within the conversation. If we're looking at gameboy/gameboy color, then the argument being made is that racing games are the exception to the no password rule. Historically, exceptions require the extra language of allowing something not otherwise allowed. The lack of that language doesn't mean the thing is allowed, it means the default is allowed.


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  15. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I'm curious...how many hours would it take you to play through from the beginning and then play the laps again?

    I ask (largely in jest) because you are the guy that spent 16 hours grinding away on Nemisis, so a multi-hour playthrough on this should be a piece of cake, and put you so far ahead of the TG competition that no one is going to come close :P then if you want to compete on a track to track you could just submit the password utilized runs at speedrun...

  16. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    That's exactly what I did. I started the game, spent the hours to unlock everything, and used my entitlement to achieve my scores because I put in the effort to get those cars. I wrote down the password, and used it to have more attempts on each track. I earned the entitlement to do so, from the same starting point as you would have too.

    ... and failed to show all evidence of that in a single session as is the norm of the scoreboard. In the circumstances where a passcode/password/whatever can be entered, the rules stipulate which code(s) may be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    I believe the password rules didn't consider this option. I can't help the game doesn't have autosave and rules are rules no matter how old they were when written and technology changed making some rules possibly needing updating or obsolete. Updating in this instance, original hardware rule would be obsolete :p

    You are foisting your interpretation against the opinion of the rule makers of the track. You have your opinion and they are not incorrect because they are your personal opinion (this is why I tend not to state you're wrong). The personal opinion of the track maker(s) and global rules are just as sacrosanct as yours. The scoreboard works on the rules, not your opinion. The track was created in a time when it was the norm that no passwords/codes/unlocks were [Edit: removed double-negative] permitted. Those norms are written into the global rules. The rules do not match your opinion and you are taking exception to it.

    LOL, let's face it, you have a habit of interpreting the rules to match whichever way you want to game rather than how the scoreboard works for everyone else. You began with NES emulation submissions claiming they were NES direct capture (there's probably some scores still accepted under that guise). You've claimed that NTSC Xbox footage is the same as PAL (probably some snuck through). It's the "Kyle intepretation": Kyle games and argues the toss if he finds the rules aren't to his liking. :P Generally, this puts you on the same shaky ground that Ryan Genno finds himself on. The main difference is he pushed his interpretation of how PAL works onto the scoreboard but wasn't uncovered until later. You've mostly experienced yours being uncovered upfront so there isn't a swathe of disputes to get through. You both deserve to particpate but neither of you exactly fits "honest Abe" submissions. :P

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    Updated 08-31-2021 at 11:09 AM by Barthax
  17. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I opened a dispute for one of the Top Gear games here:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/235741-Dispute-Patrick-Stanley-Game-Boy-Game-Boy-Color-Top-Gear-Pocket-Desert-Fastest-Race-Player-Kyle-Nelson-Score-03-21-87

    It seems like it might serve as a more centralized and permanent spot for the discussion and with the applicable votes will require TG to make a decision on the rules one way or another.


  18. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Now, now, I've been upfront about everything when someone asks me about it. What does any of that stuff when I first joined have to do with any of this?? Since you brought it up though, and people are on a cheaters rampage, I guess I'll address them so that **** doesn't come my way. If I honestly don't know something, I honestly don't know. Back then I didn't ask before I did stuff, I just did them because I enjoyed playing games and that's all it was about. Some of us haven't been around forever, and there have been a ton of changes in this TG era that contradict a lot of what is written in the rules. When I first joined I assumed it was like some of the other sites, play a game and submit your score. I never considered someone cheating just to have a score because that's not how my mind works. It's just stupid.

    I think the NES stuff was using turbo on 1943 and my direct capture card and it's frame rates. I immediately admitted I used turbo, because I did, I never tried hiding it, didn't think anything of it. There are turbo controllers everywhere, so I used one. Never used on since. I can tap fast enough, but why not use the controller am I right? I think it was you who asked about my direct capture card. I told you what I used, I had never used one before that. It said it recorded at 60 FPS, I new that matched the speed of the NTSC, so I got it. I had to reformat the videos was the only other thing I know I had to do because it recorded in a format at the time wasn't compatible?? I don't remember exactly because I only used it 3 times or something. After your concerns, I've always done live recording because I don't want those problems associated with me and it was quite frankly a pain in the ass to have a score accepted. I used to use a webcam, now I use my phone because it's so much clearer. When I started here I had no idea about recording devices, PAL, MAME (still don't). Learned as I went and am always upfront about it.

    The god damn cord is a part of the controller...there, got my interpretation of the Duck Hunt rules out of the way.

    The XBox thing I was up front about also. I said my Xbox was modded and had that video software that changed the video settings to either PAL or NTSC in it. I learned that some Xbox games are "optimal", meaning they play the same on either PAL or XBox consoles. I honestly didn't know I had the wrong version of Battle Engine Aquila when I played it. Pretty sure I discovered that one on my own and called myself out on it immediately. I've asked several Xbox modding communities if the Enigma Video program is accurate, they have all said that it plays PAL and NTSC games at the proper speed. I knew nothing about it prior to that, haven't done anything about it since because I don't know where to look and don't have the money to do the side by side. I'm not a modder either, I just know what allow you to do. Never meant to play cross region when I did it, won't ever do it again unless by accident.

    I asked about passwords before I submitted to Top Gear Pocket and got the go ahead to do so, so I did. I repeated that step for International Rally, now this debate has started because of it. That's not me interpreting anything, that was me doing something I was already given the go ahead to do and had done. See, I learned and asked before I did something. Now it's somehow turning into this for doing something nobody objected to me doing, and they where accepted and have been on the leaderboards for quite some time now?? My interpretation of the rules only came out after the fact.

    How I interpret things is how I'm going to do things, just like everybody else I'm sure. As you know, I have no issues with discussing any interpretation on anything :P As for the comparison to Ryan, I haven't paid much attention to whatever is happening there other than he was playing PAL games on an NTSC console or vice versa. I did that once, by accident, and called myself out on it. That is about the only comparison I see with that situation.

    It's getting to be more of a pain in the ass to submit scores here than when I joined. Everything is so strictly by the book (even though it isn't) that it's more who is viewing/submitting than it is about the scores themselves. If using passwords in this manner is so wrong, I guess you should put in a request to Admin staff and tell them to re-write the rules so there can't be any other interpretation. Otherwise, I'm going to interpret things however I see them. In this case, not being able to use passwords to retrieve data is illogical, and telling someone to play many hours to use the best stuff when there is a much simpler option isn't logical either.

    Me playing 18 hours on a scoring based game is not comparable to a racing game. Those 18 hours were used for the entire score. Unlocking the best car after 10 hours of play for a 2 minute run is completely illogical to do once you get the password to unlock it immediately. And now this is where you guys turn it around to your debate, and then I come back with the same stuff.

    Seriously, what the heck was with all that "Kyle's Interpretation" stuff and early TG days and Ryan comparison stuff? If that's how I'm being viewed, we got some problems.

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  19. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    I opened a dispute for one of the Top Gear games here:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/235741-Dispute-Patrick-Stanley-Game-Boy-Game-Boy-Color-Top-Gear-Pocket-Desert-Fastest-Race-Player-Kyle-Nelson-Score-03-21-87

    It seems like it might serve as a more centralized and permanent spot for the discussion and with the applicable votes will require TG to make a decision on the rules one way or another.


    Side-bar: curious side-effect of Disputes. If people want to force TG to make a decision with this as an example, vote Yes even if you believe the achievement should remain on the scoreboard. If you believe the achievement deserves to remain, articulate your opinion in the comments. TG doesn't make a decision until there are enough Yes votes for them to "take notice" but then take on board all comments as part (but not necessarily determination of) their decision.

    [Edit: aren't became are.]

    Updated 09-01-2021 at 09:00 AM by Barthax
  20. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    Now, now, I've been upfront

    Yep, as I mentioned: things have been uncovered upfront.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    Otherwise, I'm going to interpret things however I see them. In this case, not being able to use passwords to retrieve data is illogical, and telling someone to play many hours to use the best stuff when there is a much simpler option isn't logical either.

    LOL, I've mentioned this in one of the submissions: the exact same reasoning can underpin any action - including those that want to cheat (not an accusation). A rule stating "any vehicle" doesn't mean "hack the rom to generate your own that works better than any of the in-built stuff" (this is not what you've done and not any accusation) but your exact words can be used to defend that angle. It's dodgy.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    Me playing 18 hours on a scoring based game is not comparable to a racing game. Those 18 hours were used for the entire score. Unlocking the best car after 10 hours of play for a 2 minute run is completely illogical to do once you get the password to unlock it immediately. And now this is where you guys turn it around to your debate, and then I come back with the same stuff.

    ... and the scoreboard has the answer: create your own track for your purposes. Stick to the legacy rules for the legacy tracks. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    Seriously, what the heck was with all that "Kyle's Interpretation" stuff and early TG days and Ryan comparison stuff? If that's how I'm being viewed, we got some problems.

    Your interpretations are, irregularly, are at odds with the legacy and consistent rule interpretations. Where other people accept the difference and create a new track because they don't agree with the existing rule set, you argue the toss that the scoreboard should bend to your interpretation. It's a "Kyle interpretation" thing: avoiding rules that don't fit your achievement. :P It's a characteristic, something to own. ;)

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