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thegamer1185
08-31-2021 at 09:07 AM
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Passwords....

Okay, now that my submissions have been rejected, I suppose I can finally post this for the community to comment before wasting possibly more of my time. As a general rule, Passwords are not allowed unless rules say you can use them. Older games use them to retrieve your previous plays. Should this be allowed and a the rule amended for such a situation? Not to many games from the old days allowed you to unlock certain things and didn't require you to use a password to retrieve them.

These two games are the ones in question. The first game is Top Gear Pocket. https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/top-gear-pocket/game-boy-game-boy-color If you notice, the rules don't say you can use passwords, however the rules state you may use any levelled up car. So it's either someone spends many hours getting the best car just to use it in a single sitting, recording everything showing how you got it because people essentially require a boot up so you can't just get the car and reboot because you would lose the car. OR you unlock the car and use the password you get to retrieve it after the boot up. Before I submitted to these tracks, I asked the community if I could use passwords to retrieve my unlocked vehicles, nobody at the time said no, several said yes. I submitted, and they all got accepted. Everything seemed all good.

The second game uses the exact same scenario as above, I never asked about the passwords because it had already been done in the game above, but all scores were argued about using a password and ultimately rejected. https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/international-rally/game-boy-game-boy-color

Passwords used in this situation, IMO, do not match up with what is written in TG rules which state "cheat codes, cheat devices, in game codes and continues are not allowed". Cheat codes give you something you couldn't normally obtain in the game such as having a late game weapon from the start or invincibility, cheat devices would be using a gameshark, and an in game code would be inputting the Konami code (which gives you an advantage with extra lives). Using a password simply to retrieve unlocked data, again IMO, does not fall under these rules nor does it give any player an advantage over another. That is the purpose of not allowing passwords, to prevent someone from having the advantage. The only reason I had an advantage in these games is because I spent the time to unlock the cars, just like any modern day game does now. If I choose to unlock the best car and use it, that's on me. If I want to use the first car out of the box and use it, that's on me. Simply put, we all can get these cars by playing the game.

I would like the community to give their thoughts on this since I would like to have these games tracks (and others if I find them) to allow for passwords to be used to retrieve your unlocked vehicles/data. Something does need to be decided because I've already got scores using this tactic accepted on one game, because people said do it, but then the other they got rejected. So my scores either need disputed, pissing people off because they lose CR over something nobody really argued, or we allow these types of passwords because no advantage is given to any player.

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  1. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    Me playing 18 hours on a scoring based game is not comparable to a racing game. Those 18 hours were used for the entire score. Unlocking the best car after 10 hours of play for a 2 minute run is completely illogical to do once you get the password to unlock it immediately. And now this is where you guys turn it around to your debate, and then I come back with the same stuff.

    It is comparable, you just don't want it to be.

    The ability to use the best car for two minutes of play after ten hours of play is the cumulative effect of playing the game. There is no way for you to say definitely that the original rules were not written with that in mind [edit to add "not"]. Simply because the you want to be able to skip ahead to the two minute runs, doesn't mean you should be able to. An Olympic runner running the 5000 shouldn't get to skip the first 4400 simply because it all comes down to the sprint.

    As for the logic of it...the entire act of playing games and submitting scores/times at all could be argued to be pretty illogical, yet here we all are.

    As a side question re: Top Gear - did you see JMB's notes in any of his subs before submitting? To me that makes it pretty clear that passwords wouldn't be allowed in that game. Granted, I don't always look at the previous subs on a game I'm playing, so can totally see that being missed, BUT the fact that he subbed runs and clearly stated his understanding of pws for that game really kind of solidifies the point to me.

    Likesthegamer1185 liked this post
    Updated 08-31-2021 at 12:21 PM by Blackflag82
  2. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    There is no way for you to say definitely that the original rules were not written with that in mind.

    Exactly!! Shouldn't be any room for this to even be a debate. Just as you guys aren't saying I'm wrong is the reason I can't say you are right. The rules are not clear. Neither side is budging because none of us is wrong, haha!! That is how the rules are written. I'm not wrong because you can see why I'm right, just as I know you guys aren't wrong because I understand why you are right. If passwords aren't allowed, why the hell did they right them the way they did?! I mean, come on! There is no clearer interpretation of "No Passwords are ever allowed" than writing....well "No Passwords are ever allowed". The way they are written implies that only passwords used in those 3 specific rules are not allowed. So we have any and all interpretation of what "Cheat-codes", "Cheat devices", and "in game codes and continues" means and how many people agree with you/them. I don't believe using a password to retrieve data falls under any of those rules. I see why you think it means no use of ANY passwords or codes also. The rules aren't written grammatically correct for either sides. And that's me saying that! I read good, I don't write good (ha, yes I did that on purpose).

    This is just like the leeching rule to me. Who is to decide that to much is to much? We don't know, it's different for everyone. That's not a rule, it's a statement.

    LikesMyOwnWorstEnemy liked this post
    Updated 08-31-2021 at 12:41 PM by thegamer1185
  3. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    Exactly!! Shouldn't be any room for this to even be a debate. Just as you guys aren't saying I'm wrong is the reason I can't say you are right. The rules are not clear. Neither side is budging because none of us is wrong, haha!! That is how the rules are written. I'm not wrong because you can see why I'm right, just as I know you guys aren't wrong because I understand why you are right. If passwords aren't allowed, why the hell did they right them the way they did?! I mean, come on! There is no clearer interpretation of "No Passwords are ever allowed" than writing....well "No Passwords are ever allowed". The way they are written implies that only passwords used in those 3 specific rules are not allowed. So we have any and all interpretation of what "Cheat-codes", "Cheat devices", and "in game codes and continues" means and how many people agree with you/them. I don't believe using a password to retrieve data falls under any of those rules. I see why you think it means no use of ANY passwords or codes also. The rules aren't written grammatically correct for either sides. And that's me saying that! I read good, I don't write good (ha, yes I did that on purpose).

    This is just like the leeching rule to me. Who is to decide that to much is to much? We don't know, it's different for everyone. That's not a rule, it's a statement.


    Right, but like Barthax, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply saying your interpretation goes against the historic precedent. That's fine if you're the only submitter and want to make a case for a rule change,

    BUT

    with Top Gear, JMB specifically stated "To get to the other courses I had to go through some championships to unlock them because passwords can't be used since they are not explicitly allowed in the rules."

    That makes it pretty clear that the first submitter read the rules a certain way and played by those rules. To change the rules after the fact to fit your desired ruleset creates an uneven playing field because of your opinion, which is no way to structure the board. Otherwise, every person who comes along with a new opinion or reading of something could just change the rules to unfairly benefit themselves...


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  4. swaggers's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    Just as you guys aren't saying I'm wrong is the reason I can't say you are right.


    To me, as the rules stand, you are wrong.

    "The use of cheat codes, cheat devices, in-game codes and continues"

    How is playing a game and getting a code at the end of playing that session of the game. Then coming back later and entering that code not a "continue" of the game?

  5. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82



    Right, but like Barthax, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply saying your interpretation goes against the historic precedent. That's fine if you're the only submitter and want to make a case for a rule change,

    BUT

    with Top Gear, JMB specifically stated "To get to the other courses I had to go through some championships to unlock them because passwords can't be used since they are not explicitly allowed in the rules."

    That makes it pretty clear that the first submitter read the rules a certain way and played by those rules. To change the rules after the fact to fit your desired ruleset creates an uneven playing field because of your opinion, which is no way to structure the board. Otherwise, every person who comes along with a new opinion or reading of something could just change the rules to unfairly benefit themselves...


    So if I go into International Rally and nobody makes any such statement about how "they" interpret the rules me using a password would be allowed? JMB could go back and play the game using a password after he unlocked everything...I know, convenient for me and not for him. I'm just going to let the TG staff figure it out and go from there. If using basic cars or having 10 hour videos of unlocking things just to submit using them is how things are going to be done around here then at least we will all know with clarity. The lack of clarity around here is growing (tons of things), and I know I'm at the front of many of them, but it's kind of ridiculous there are these many loop holes in the rules where people can't say who is actually right or wrong. Whether I think you guys are being to literal, or you think I'm over analyzing, there are way to many ways to view rules that should be hard locked. I will say, my way is typically way easier to do scores than expecting someone to play an hour just to unlock all the tracks...not the point, but it's a good point.

  6. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    So if I go into International Rally and nobody makes any such statement about how "they" interpret the rules me using a password would be allowed?

    well no. because didn't the community just rule against all of those scores using a password after sufficient debate and time for voting? The statement was made pretty clearly already


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  7. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by swaggers



    To me, as the rules stand, you are wrong.

    "The use of cheat codes, cheat devices, in-game codes and continues"

    How is playing a game and getting a code at the end of playing that session of the game. Then coming back later and entering that code not a "continue" of the game?

    Because it's the same function as someone loading their profile and continuing from where they left off with all their stuff already unlocked. Autosave data/Password data are the same thing to me.

  8. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82


    well no. because didn't the community just rule against all of those scores using a password after sufficient debate and time for voting? The statement was made pretty clearly already


    I think it's because someone said they were voting NO so most others did :P

  9. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by swaggers



    He's not asking about a cheat code. He's talking about save codes. Something that should be treated completely different. These are codes the game gives you to continue your progress in games and systems with no battery save functionality.


    I believe these types of codes should be allowed but also the individual game rules should handle to use and specify how the codes are acquired and used.

    So I'm getting mixed signals with you.

  10. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    I think it's because someone said they were voting NO so most others did :P

    A bunch of people said they were voting yes as well...

  11. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    Because it's the same function as someone loading their profile and continuing from where they left off with all their stuff already unlocked. Autosave data/Password data are the same thing to me.

    I wasn't aware of autosave on gameboy games (though I'm not familar with alot of the GB color games)...what games have it? trying to compare across consoles while saying the comparison between a racing game and any other game isn't valid is a bit disingenuous.

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  12. JJT_Defender's Avatar

    Like TG member suggested just create a track that allows passwords. Problem solved.

  13. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82


    I wasn't aware of autosave on gameboy games (though I'm not familar with alot of the GB color games)...what games have it? trying to compare across consoles while saying the comparison between a racing game and any other game isn't valid is a bit disingenuous.

    Never said the game boy had an autosave function, a lot of them do have battery saves though. I said autosave data/password data are the same to me.

  14. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Here are some examples where it is called out in the rules about it being allowed to load from a saved file or entering a password in order to access all the cars or tracks.

    The presence of these rules gives stronger weight to the opinion that you are not allowed to use a code on the specific two games you raised this thread about.


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/gran-turismo-2/playstation/ntsc-arcade-mode-class-c-tahiti-road-forward-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "Player may use a saved game to access unlocked cars and tracks."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/rollcage-stage-2/playstation/ntsc-scramble-cut-loose-fastest-completion/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "You may use a leveled-up file to get access to and use any vehicle."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ridge-racer/playstation/ntsc-beginner-difficulty-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "You may use a leveled-up file to access and use any vehicle"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/test-drive-eve-of-destruction/playstation-2/ntsc-anoka-chain-race-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "May use a leveled-up file to get access to and use any car."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/gt-advance-championship-racing/game-boy-advance/fastest-lap-circuit-1-hornet/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "[May use the following code to unlock everything [Excluding the *'s; *+vMN ?T/6 /NRR vMR8*]"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/street-racer/super-nintendo-entertainment-system/ntsc-biff-1-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "[May ONLY Use the Code "LButton, RButton, LButton, RButton, X, Y" in the Custom Cup Setup Mode to Unlock Custom Cup Tracks 21-24. Any other Code will result in your attempt immediately being disqualified!]"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/dirt-trax-fx/super-nintendo-entertainment-system/ntsc-the-big-o-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "May Use the Password CLRF to Unlock All Tracks"

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  15. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I'm still curious, Kyle, did you see JMB's note about password usage in Top Gear before submitting?

  16. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    I'm still curious, Kyle, did you see JMB's note about password usage in Top Gear before submitting?

    No, I didnt. I hardly ever watch people's runs before hand unless I can't beat their scores, then I do for some pointers, hehe. I just look at the times on the leaderboards and try to beat them.

    I've always questioned to myself why they weren't allowed for this reason, I simply hadn't gotten to any games competitive wise at the time to bring it up.

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  17. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138

    Here are some examples where it is called out in the rules about it being allowed to load from a saved file or entering a password in order to access all the cars or tracks.

    The presence of these rules gives stronger weight to the opinion that you are not allowed to use a code on the specific two games you raised this thread about.


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/gran-turismo-2/playstation/ntsc-arcade-mode-class-c-tahiti-road-forward-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "Player may use a saved game to access unlocked cars and tracks."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/rollcage-stage-2/playstation/ntsc-scramble-cut-loose-fastest-completion/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "You may use a leveled-up file to get access to and use any vehicle."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ridge-racer/playstation/ntsc-beginner-difficulty-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "You may use a leveled-up file to access and use any vehicle"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/test-drive-eve-of-destruction/playstation-2/ntsc-anoka-chain-race-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "May use a leveled-up file to get access to and use any car."


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/gt-advance-championship-racing/game-boy-advance/fastest-lap-circuit-1-hornet/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "[May use the following code to unlock everything [Excluding the *'s; *+vMN ?T/6 /NRR vMR8*]"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/street-racer/super-nintendo-entertainment-system/ntsc-biff-1-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "[May ONLY Use the Code "LButton, RButton, LButton, RButton, X, Y" in the Custom Cup Setup Mode to Unlock Custom Cup Tracks 21-24. Any other Code will result in your attempt immediately being disqualified!]"


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/dirt-trax-fx/super-nintendo-entertainment-system/ntsc-the-big-o-fastest-lap/page/1?ref=fbshare

    "May Use the Password CLRF to Unlock All Tracks"

    See how many different variables there are to those passwords? Unlock everything, unlock all tracks, unlock specific tracks. I'm using the one the game gave me. I suppose I could give you guys the password so you can see for yourselves that's all it does, but nobody has asked. One of them even states you can use one of your leveled up files...as if you couldn't select a save profile to being with? IDK, it's all over the place and appears as games advanced, passwords became more acceptable to save time versus not allowed. Makes sense to me but I could be wrong

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  18. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    The global rule is as follows:

    The use of cheat codes, cheat devices, in-game codes and continues are disallowed as a general rule. The only exceptions to this rule are: Any game track/variation that explicitly overrides this general rule with its own rules governing the matter within its specific listed rule set.

    The key here is the only exception must be explicitly overridden in the rules outlined in the specific game track. Seems clear enough by then we have this situation that we are discussing and weighing in our own opinions on pros and cons. Here is the written rules for the two games / tracks.

    Top Gear Pocket

    • Time Attack.

    • You may use any available levelled-up car.

    Top Gear Pocket

    • Mode: Time Attack.

    • The player may use any levelled-up car.

    • Player may use any set-up.


    The line in the rules stating that a player may use a levelled-up car is where ambiguity enters the equation. The problem being there are more than one valid interpretation of the rules (global and track) that are also contradictory.

    • If the track rule states a player may use any levelled-up car and a means to do so is to apply a passcode, is this explicit enough to override the general rule as a valid exception?
    • On the contrary, if a means to use a any levelled-up car is use of a passcode and its not explicitly written in the rules, is use of the code prohibited by the general rules.

    Both statements are valid and at the same time contradictory. As it is, I can’t see how an accepted submission can be overturned because another valid interpretation is contradictory to another valid interpretation. Without further information in the rule, permitting the use of levelled-up vehicle from demonstrated game play only or either gameplay of passcodes are both valid interpretations. Both are right under the rules.

    The solution to clear up the valid but contradictory interpretations is to update the rules to either explicitly allow or not allow use to passcodes to unlock the levelled-up vehicles. The decision on how to update the rules could be driven by is a submission was successfully accepted or rejected by the set of adjudicators applying their interpretation of the rules and applicability to the submission.

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  19. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnWorstEnemy

    The global rule is as follows:

    The use of cheat codes, cheat devices, in-game codes and continues are disallowed as a general rule. The only exceptions to this rule are: Any game track/variation that explicitly overrides this general rule with its own rules governing the matter within its specific listed rule set.

    The key here is the only exception must be explicitly overridden in the rules outlined in the specific game track. Seems clear enough by then we have this situation that we are discussing and weighing in our own opinions on pros and cons. Here is the written rules for the two games / tracks.

    Top Gear Pocket

    • Time Attack.

    • You may use any available levelled-up car.

    Top Gear Pocket

    • Mode: Time Attack.

    • The player may use any levelled-up car.

    • Player may use any set-up.


    The line in the rules stating that a player may use a levelled-up car is where ambiguity enters the equation. The problem being there are more than one valid interpretation of the rules (global and track) that are also contradictory.

    • If the track rule states a player may use any levelled-up car and a means to do so is to apply a passcode, is this explicit enough to override the general rule as a valid exception?
    • On the contrary, if a means to use a any levelled-up car is use of a passcode and its not explicitly written in the rules, is use of the code prohibited by the general rules.

    Both statements are valid and at the same time contradictory. As it is, I can’t see how an accepted submission can be overturned because another valid interpretation is contradictory to another valid interpretation. Without further information in the rule, permitting the use of levelled-up vehicle from demonstrated game play only or either gameplay of passcodes are both valid interpretations. Both are right under the rules.

    The solution to clear up the valid but contradictory interpretations is to update the rules to either explicitly allow or not allow use to passcodes to unlock the levelled-up vehicles. The decision on how to update the rules could be driven by is a submission was successfully accepted or rejected by the set of adjudicators applying their interpretation of the rules and applicability to the submission.

    Haha, your last paragraph is a problem. Because my submissions were accepted and the new batch using the same rules were rejected. Yes to the rest. Unlocking an upgraded car gives you a password to reuse the car. Who knows. It's a mess.

  20. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    Haha, your last paragraph is a problem. Because my submissions were accepted and the new batch using the same rules were rejected. Yes to the rest. Unlocking an upgraded car gives you a password to reuse the car. Who knows. It's a mess.

    LOL - Its just another contradiction amongst a forest of contradictions. These gray area interpretations are subject to the whims of the adjudicators. One set of adjudicators sees this as acceptable, another set sees it as unacceptable. There is nothing here to prevent you or someone else from submitting to the same track in the future, using the same justification and having it accepted. If that happens, it will contradict the previous adjudication results of your rejected submission. Unless some rule clarity is applied, we will just continue to go down these rabbit holes every so often.

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