thegamer1185's Feed

thegamer1185
10-21-2021 at 08:34 AM
18 Comments
Rate this Entry

PAL and NTSC timed runs

Since racing games seem to be the favored submitted scores around here, I thought this would be a fun little discussion. Plus I'm bored because I'm sitting in a hospital while the wife has an operation. I am well aware of the timing differences for game play, 60hz NTSC, 50hz PAL. I am curious as to why the tracks aren't all under one track for the games that adjust accordingly? Surely there have to be some games that adjust the timer and/or gameplay speed accordingly where your inputs on PAL system would still end up being the same time on an NTSC system, resulting in the exact same time. Are there some games that do this? Is it to much of a hassle to check and see which games do this? Is this even possible?

From a strictly player perspective, you still have to adjust your actions accordingly to the region your playing on. Some games are easier when moving faster, some are easier when moving slower, but it's still up to the player to make those adjustments. If the timers for PAL games simply always play slower, or I suppose more accurately (I think), the action in the game is moving slower and the timer is accurate to real time, then it makes sense why the NTSC would have the clear advantage in a faster time. However, if the games do adjust for it, wouldn't it be OK to have all those tracks combined and under one track for competition?

Thought this would be fun where we can all sit back, have a few drinks and discuss something fun. Think we need a fun discussion around here. I could very well be 100% wrong and this type of scenario is impossible to even occur, but the Game Boy could do it because it was region free, Shirley (don't call me Shirley) another system may have figured it out on a few games.

Comments
  1. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    I'm in on this one!

    :)

    OK, lessee.

    I think to a degree you are on track with the player perspective.

    One worry I have is that I really, really don't think there's any way to KNOW that the times will match up, the timer is much more complicated than one that goes up to 5.57, and you remember what a mess that was to unravel, haha!

    But for instance-I remember thinking when I was playing Ayrton Senna on the Master System specifically, that on some tracks you'd be inherently faster on NTSC(mebbe less curves), and others you'd be faster on PAL(winding tracks).

    No clue if I am right, I have all kinds of fleeting notions, but I do remember that.


    Another issue to consider, if I am right...I'm sure @Barthax will correct me, if not-

    The SMS actually uses region free games, just played on different systems, mebbe the Odyssey2 is like that as well, and I don't think all systems are like that, I think most of the time the code is tweaked-if not, you get Hard Drivin', lol, or Activision Anthology for PS1...


    Another angle, kinda unrelated, but my interest in chiming in is because me playing NTSC and PAL ISN'T just for double scores(I said "just", dammit), it is interesting, sometimes seeing the differences and stuff.

    If you really wanna take on a hardcore one(I know how good you are. I'm almost even challenging you. The game is damned hard...), you need to put some time into SNES Super Mario Kart.

    That's one of the first ones I really did hardcore, cross region, and seeing the differences, feeling the differences is really neat and noticable.

    But(the point)-as I was playing, I started dicking around with the screen size, fullscreen, widescreen, etc, etc, etc-anything other than "regular" compromised my times, and we are talking tenths and hundreths, but I would completely swear to it.

    I wasn't "good", by any means, but I had played it enough to know exactly how good I was, what to expect on the simpler tracks, and could even tell a difference in a slightly inferior controller, tho the controller was really fine, just not "as good".


    Hope all goes well with your Wife, Shirley, and whatever hospital you are at that allows drinks in the waiting room, sign me up!

    :)


    ThanksAlantheace thanked this post
  2. Tompa's Avatar

    Even though you mentioned racing games, I'll talk more generally: There are also many PAL games were your your character has been sped up in order to match the speed of NTSC. In Super Mario World, you are running faster in PAL. This also means that there are certain techniques you can only do in the PAL version because you have higher speed, such as running under the koopa in Yoshi's Island I or being able to clear the last fire pit in Iggys Castle without having to grab the fence. You're also faster in Super Mario Bros., Donkey Kong Country, A Link to the Past and others.

    Then there is of course the other gameplay changes between versions, certain adjustment and bug fixes, that can heavily affect your time as well.

    Likesthegamer1185, Barthax liked this post
  3. Barthax's Avatar

    First things first: throw NES and SNES out the window for discussion similarities between NTSC & PAL. Nintendo produced slower CPUs for the PAL NES & SNES, so there's never going to be a good comparison on these two platforms. :(

    I'll have a think on the rest but it's basically a discussion surrounding fair & level playing field. Why mix anything if there's a detectable difference?


    Good luck in the hospital. :)

  4. JJT_Defender's Avatar

    If it is racing times between PAL and NTSC then their are major differences especially on long races like 2 to 10 minutes or longer you Definitely can tell the difference without question.

  5. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I personally don't care if they ever get mixed. It really is crazy how different PAL and NTSC are from one another. I guess I was focused on racing games because of the fact they use in game timers so the comparisons/differences could be easier to detect. Like I said, I was bored, saw a few of Fred Bruggmans Project Gotham racing subs, realized I couldn't compete against him unless I buy a bunch of stuff, it "just popped in there" as Ray Stantz would say.

    Christina will be fine. In fact, they aren't going to do as much as they originally thought. Hysterectomy operation. Turns out it can really change how they feel pain wise, sexually, and emotionally. Also, recent studies have found that the fallopian tubes are what causes 85% of all ovarian cancers. Which I thought was pretty crazy but like most cancers, it seems to start somewhere in the body and ends up spreading to another part of the body more severely so it makes sense. She won't be needing to remove her ovaries because there is no need now, and at her age that would have been a pretty big deal. TMI, sorry, but it's a pretty big deal for a woman to be able to keep her ovaries, or having them removed, so that was some great news for us. If they are removed, they essentially go into pre-menopause and have to take estrogen pills to balance things out essentially the rest of their life. It's not a good situation, but the alternative is worse. Life isn't all video games, but this is fantastic news for us!

  6. kernzyp's Avatar

    I tried to ask for this before. I have more submissions and maybe better times on GT3 than most, but I am way down on ESI, even to someone with only 20 entries against my hundreds.
    Adeyblue made a video comparison as he used both.
    It will never happen for those older systems.

  7. nads's Avatar

    I’ll throw in Super Monaco GP for the Megadrive/Genesis

    the times for both NTSC and PAL match up, I don’t believe there is much of a difference in gameplay either

    @Rogerpoco and @RaGeNyC maybe can debunk or confirm my post ??

    ThanksRogerpoco thanked this post
    LikesRaGeNyC, Rogerpoco liked this post
  8. RaGeNyC's Avatar

    When racing games deduct milliseconds when your tires screech, usually the slower running PAL will produce better times, since your tires are screeching less. I chased @Barthax 's PAL , Road Rash-Grass Valley time on NTSC, literally, for years! I eventually tied him. When I got my own Megadrive, I tied him within minutes--Less screech makes the first two RR games easier on PAL.


    The 3rd game in the RR series has much slower running times for PAL. Seems like it's using a real-time clock, rather than a clock that accommodates for different region speeds.


    There's an OutRun game that is impossible to complete on NTSC, because time runs out due to the clock running down faster than PAL.


    I can go on and on with examples, but basically, you never know what you're gonna get between regions.

    ThanksRogerpoco, nads thanked this post
    Updated 10-21-2021 at 02:11 PM by RaGeNyC
  9. RaGeNyC's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by nads

    I’ll throw in Super Monaco GP for the Megadrive/Genesis

    the times for both NTSC and PAL match up, I don’t believe there is much of a difference in gameplay either

    @Rogerpoco and @RaGeNyC maybe can debunk or confirm my post ??

    They do match up, Pete. That's another example of a game producing a touch less tire screech on PAL due to the slower running console--and as we know, every little tire screech is a killer in that damn game! lol
    Thanksnads thanked this post
    LikesRogerpoco, nads liked this post
  10. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I think it would be awesome putting those scores together if possible.

  11. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    I think it would be awesome putting those scores together if possible.


    Lol, I totally understand why you would want that, but the work to achieve the scores on both was a lot of...work.

    It wouldn't be awesome, they have been there for ages, it would be for "a specific purpose".

    There's been a lot of competition on both, no reason to want to take scores away from someone that they earned.

    *Ahem*


    Yeah, totally in disagreement, was too hard to do, and is only to reduce some people's score totals, I hate to say, but I'm just saying what's obvious.


    Thanksnads thanked this post
    Likesnads, thegamer1185, RaGeNyC liked this post
  12. thegamer1185's Avatar

    That's a good point. You damn submitters with both region consoles!! I'm not jealous or anything.

    LikesRaGeNyC, kernzyp, Barthax liked this post
  13. kernzyp's Avatar

    Yeah. Because we don't have both kinds, it's very unfair !! ;)

  14. fredb999's Avatar

    Kyle Nillssoonnn
    If you are bored.
    You can start with these.


    Or you can buy the PAL consoles and Pal Games and send.

    Just like other people from here they did.


    Fred

    LikesRedDawn, Rogerpoco, kernzyp, nads liked this post
  15. RedDawn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by kernzyp

    I tried to ask for this before. I have more submissions and maybe better times on GT3 than most, but I am way down on ESI, even to someone with only 20 entries against my hundreds.
    Adeyblue made a video comparison as he used both.
    It will never happen for those older systems.


    ESI doesnt care about how many #1's a gamer has. ESI is primarily determined by how many people you are beating.

    For example, lets say 'Person A' submits a single Donkey Kong Arcade score of 415,000, putting them in 59th place on the DK leaderboard, out of total 118 positions.

    and 'Person B' submits 50 different #1 performances on 50 different games, but each of those 50 tracks only had one prior submission.

    Person A would get more ESI for that one DK track than Person B would be getting for 50 tracks because Person A is beating more opponents.


    Thankskernzyp thanked this post
    Likeskernzyp liked this post
  16. kernzyp's Avatar

    [QUOTE=RedDawn;bt74543]




    ESI doesnt care about how many #1's a gamer has. ESI is primarily determined by how many people you are beating.

    For example, lets say 'Person A' submits a single Donkey Kong Arcade score of 415,000, putting them in 59th place on the DK leaderboard, out of total 118 positions.

    and 'Person B' submits 50 different #1 performances on 50 different games, but each of those 50 tracks only had one prior submission.

    Person A would get more ESI for that one DK track than Person B would be getting for 50 tracks because Person A is beating more opponents.


    [/QUOTE]

    I KNOOOOW !!!! :D Heh, heh...
    A single record could be the top ESI if there was enough entries.
    It's more of a "most popular game" players grading than an overall skill achievement.
    It's a nice feature, and it's complicated, but isn't universal, so pretty useless for many. Unless you play "these games", you are considered useless in the ESI department. Getting absolutely nothing for a first place still feels weird, though. You have to wait for someone to try and fail before anything is recognised. Complicated.
    I wonder what the total ESI champ would be if every game PAL/NTSC could be combined together....?
    It's decent for every port. A necessary mini table.
    Cheers mate.

  17. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDawn




    ESI doesnt care about how many #1's a gamer has. ESI is primarily determined by how many people you are beating.

    For example, lets say 'Person A' submits a single Donkey Kong Arcade score of 415,000, putting them in 59th place on the DK leaderboard, out of total 118 positions.

    and 'Person B' submits 50 different #1 performances on 50 different games, but each of those 50 tracks only had one prior submission.

    Person A would get more ESI for that one DK track than Person B would be getting for 50 tracks because Person A is beating more opponents.



    Just to add to this: inadvertently (through human perception, not scoreboard calculation) ESI/1st place also does care about how well the inaugural score performs. The scoreboard (even before PSI/ESI were devised) does present an inaugural as "the best there is" (because there's no comparison). Many participants won't submit a last place so if that inaugural is truly a stellar achievement, it isn't likely to increase in ESI from 0 because no other bugger is likely to post a second place against it. However, if there's a bunch of naff inaugurals, they get easily targetted. Doesn't matter if the individual motivation is ESI, #1sts*, or just "I can do better than that" attitudes, a naff inaugural attracts activity on the scoreboard whereas a stellar inaugural detracts.

    * This holds true back when the 2004 iteration of the scoreboard was made public and a variation could only be found in the search if a score existed. RTM posted huge numbers of crappy MAME subs just to get those variations appear on the scoreboard search. This in turn attracted a lot of subs to those variations: people could "beat the chief" or "that dude thinks he's all-that for his #1sts, I'll take him down..." Never underestimate human perception for being a skewed-motivation.

    Likesthegamer1185 liked this post
  18. Barthax's Avatar

    Some may have noticed when I create rules for a measurement (metres, yards, feet, mph, kph, etc), I usually put into the rules that conversions from other unit types are not permitted. Just like timing differences (at the oscillator level or above) in hardware, the unit measurement gets skewed by the scoreboard even within the same regions of the same game. For example, take a simple speed (MPH/KPH) measurement:

    - The game's engine may be using an internal calculation that is not representative of any real-world measurement. It then converts this made-up measurement to an output.

    - Regardless of whether the in-code measurement is accurate, the game then performs a mathematical function on the units to generate a representation on screen. It will round, truncate or (and some games may even "randomise") some aspect of that measurement. It may even have completely inaccurate conversion to one of the units.

    - Suppose the human then converts between measurement types: the human calculation is prone to errors (and we've seen lots of negotiations on manually timed runs to know how that pans out around here). 1.00 MPH = is that 1.60 KPH or 1.61 KPH to 2 decimals?!?!

    - Suppose everything is perfectly accurate and perfectly equal. The individuals playing the game with one measurement or another will get an advantage at differing measurements because of the number of decimal places used. Take a stance and choose MPH or KPH and convert from the other. Say you choose 3 decimals and always truncate and there's a game which maxes speed out at just after 1 MPH with all scores posted in KPH because there's simply more units per measurement in KPH. Player #1 with 1 MPH gets 1.609 KPH on the scoreboard. Cool, player #2 gets 1.610 KPH. Excellent, player #1 gets 1.001 MPH & is converted to 1.610KPH: equal. Player #2 gets 1.611 KPH... Player #1 can't get that score in MPH because 1.002 MPH is 1.612 KPH so player #2 has the advantage if 1.611 KPH were the true maximum of the game. It works in reverse too: if the scoreboard uses MPH, the KPH player is at a disadvantage because the conversion looses the distinction between 1.611 and 1.612: they both convert to 1.001 MPH.


    In a similar way to the above, for manually timed games choosing to film with many different cameras can give a player an advantage. Although immediate thought suggests a higher FPS camera would benefit, unless it is capturing above double the game FPS, it will miss a frame here or there. These could be key frames at the end of the run where a lower FPS would be mid-frame capture and therefore confirm a more "accurate" time (and let's face it, there's nothing accurate about that).

    LikesRogerpoco, RaGeNyC, thegamer1185, nads liked this post
    Updated 10-22-2021 at 01:40 AM by Barthax
Join us