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TWIN GALAXIES
09-16-2022 at 04:45 PM
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Bounty System Update and Sneak Peek!

vzaar-player

We have made some progress on the Bounty System and should have it ready for beta testing soon.

TG Members will be able to set up all kinds of Bounties just for fun, or offer Submission Point rewards, or even an entire custom reward that the TG Member who creates the bounty can specify!

All submission claims will go through TGSAP to get verified just like any other normal submission.

Bounty claim achievements will be tracked on TG Member's user profiles and may play a significant role in upcoming Twin Galaxies opportunities.

Unsurprisingly, there are a thousand little details and ramifications that "such a simple system" needs to address and it is that stuff which is taking the time to get through - not really the big stuff which is mostly completed.

When we make the beta available, there will undoubtably be things we may have overlooked, or bugs and etc. We will ask for your patience as we work through them all together.

It is also very likely that there will be a large number of feature requests from the community once it gets the hang of the system and sees how powerful and fun it can be. So we fully expect to constantly improve the system and by no means will the initial launch be considered its final form.

Anyway, attached is a video showing some of the bounty system work we have been doing. All of the bounties / text that you see is just for testing purposes only and carry no meaning, use or validity beyond that function.

If after viewing the video you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to place them in this discussion thread and we will try to answer as many as we can!

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Comments
  1. The Evener's Avatar

    This looks amazing - clearly a lot of work went into bringing that functionality to life!

    I see varying levels of credibility cited with the bounties - eg. 1500 credibility required to submit. Does that mean a gamer must have a 1500 CR to participate in that specific challenge?

    Does the "Submit" button then take the submitter to the "Submit Performance" link?

    Will all bounty submissions be tracked on the TG leaderboard? Just thinking of a scenario where a time-limited bounty sets unique competition conditions and no one is able to achieve it. Does the associated track get closed after, or is it "open" to anyone and there's just the acknowledgement that the "contest" and any associated prizes has expired, kind of like the GWR Rocket League tracks?

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  2. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    I see varying levels of credibility cited with the bounties - eg. 1500 credibility required to submit. Does that mean a gamer must have a 1500 CR to participate in that specific challenge?

    Yes. The bounty creator will have the option of setting a minimum CR level for a submitter to be able to participate. It is up to the bounty creator as to what that will be. The bounty creator may also choose not to have any CR requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    Does the "Submit" button then take the submitter to the "Submit Performance" link?
    There is a specialized Bounty Claim submission form that it takes the user to. It is very similar to the standard Submit Performance form used for normal Twin Galaxies leaderboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    Will all bounty submissions be tracked on the TG leaderboard? Just thinking of a scenario where a time-limited bounty sets unique competition conditions and no one is able to achieve it. Does the associated track get closed after, or is it "open" to anyone and there's just the acknowledgement that the "contest" and any associated prizes has expired, kind of like the GWR Rocket League tracks?

    A time-limited bounty that expires will automatically close and will no longer accept bounty claims. The posted bounty is then moved to the closed/completed bounty section of the website, so people can still see them (but just not submit claims).



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  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    i need to preface this with, i always think of the worst, which is good with stem fields but bad with humanities.

    i've heard people refer to bounties as "harassment" and "collusion", this is obviously corner case, ridiculous, and rare, but it happens. Does tg have any concern that bounties on peoples scores will be percieved as harassment, collusion, or anything else?

    and again to clarify, totally love it, i'm not saying its bad, i like it, i''m just worst case scenario oriented

  4. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    i need to preface this with, i always think of the worst, which is good with stem fields but bad with humanities.

    i've heard people refer to bounties as "harassment" and "collusion", this is obviously corner case, ridiculous, and rare, but it happens. Does tg have any concern that bounties on peoples scores will be percieved as harassment, collusion, or anything else?

    and again to clarify, totally love it, i'm not saying its bad, i like it, i''m just worst case scenario oriented

    A bounty placed on any SCORE or TG LEADERBOARD RANK POSITION for a GAME is not considered harassment.

    Harassment would be potentially considered based on how/why/whether or not people's NAMES might be used to invoke, promote or describe a bounty.

    The intention of a posted bounty that is invoking the name of someone for a specific purpose would need to be considered and examined - and there will be little tolerance for efforts that try to dance on the line or play coy with the harassment issue utilizing the bounty system.

    Being able to use the bounty system should be considered a unique TG privilege and that privilege might be quickly revoked from a user even just from the smallest hint of perceived deliberate misuse of any kind.

    Please feel free to ask more about this if you need further clarification.

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  5. lexmark's Avatar

    Jace. Can the bounty system include NON game play related stuff? For example and hypothetically , "ill pay anyone 50 submission points if they email me a copy of wolfmame 103. OR, hypothetically again, I'll pay someone 50 submission points (or whatever) if they tell me the answer to 1+1 ?

    I would like to pay peeps for helping me with a problem. Can i do that with with the new system? If not, can you make it so :) ?


    john


    .

  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    A bounty placed on any SCORE or TG LEADERBOARD RANK POSITION for a GAME is not considered harassment.

    Harassment would be potentially considered based on how/why/whether or not people's NAMES might be used to invoke, promote or describe a bounty.

    The intention of a posted bounty that is invoking the name of someone for a specific purpose would need to be considered and examined - and there will be little tolerance for efforts that try to dance on the line or play coy with the harassment issue utilizing the bounty system.

    Being able to use the bounty system should be considered a unique TG privilege and that privilege might be quickly revoked from a user even just from the smallest hint of perceived deliberate misuse of any kind.

    Please feel free to ask more about this if you need further clarification.

    if I were to go into more details likely be guilty of what I’m trying to avoid

    let’s just say I’ve literally seen bounties be called harassment not for the wording but simply because the person felt their scores shouldn’t be paid to be beaten. I’ve seen this twice and one time a literal threat to sue if anyone continued to offer bounties or even beat their scores with or without bounty — you know how crazy things get

    I like that you said any score is ok so I can rephrase. Are you willing to blanketly say “I will offer x dollars or submission points to achieve score y on higher on game z” is akeays accept able

    If I need to be more soecific for you to be able to answer I’ll message you privately

  7. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark

    Jace. Can the bounty system include NON game play related stuff? For example and hypothetically , "ill pay anyone 50 submission points if they email me a copy of wolfmame 103. OR, hypothetically again, I'll pay someone 50 submission points (or whatever) if they tell me the answer to 1+1 ?

    I would like to pay peeps for helping me with a problem. Can i do that with with the new system? If not, can you make it so :) ?

    john

    The short answer is that indeed the bounty system was designed to be able to accommodate NON game play related bounties and we as a community will explore that possibility together.

    HOWEVER, it is important to understand and keep in mind that the bounty creator WILL NOT be authenticating bounty claims.

    The TGSAP process is the only mechanism by which bounty claims are officially verified and authenticated. So there are likely certain kinds of bounty ideas that will not work well with the available tools submitters currently have to provide TGSAP evidentiary material with their claim.

    To utilize TG's bounty system, a bounty creator must agree to all of the bounty system terms of service/use.

    So, you would not be able to have bounty claimants "e-mail you a copy of something" - whereby you then personally and singly examine and authenticate and decide if the bounty claim is valid.

    Claimants must submit all any claim materials to TGSAP, where that process would authenticate. If a claim is authenticated, then it would appear and occupy one of the available claim slots of that particular bounty.

    As the bounty creator, you would then fulfill any promised reward obligation to that authenticated claimant.

    In any event, YES the system can support NON game play related bounties. It is not clear yet where Twin Galaxies wants to place limits in this area, since there literally is no other system like this on the entire internet. We are truly creating something new with this system and certainly would like to see how far it can go, or how transformative it can be.

    We will see. Certainly in these early stages we can all try different things (within reason) and see what works.

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  8. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    I like that you said any score is ok so I can rephrase. Are you willing to blanketly say “I will offer x dollars or submission points to achieve score y on higher on game z” is akeays accept able

    For absolute clarity:

    Yes, using our new bounty system, a TG Member can offer a bounty reward to achieve a " score of Y or higher" on "game z"

    Hopefully that answers your question.

    As a conduct recommendation to help bounty creators take steps to avoid harassment claims:

    A TG Member should not specifically describe, advertise, or imply that a bounty they have created is to specifically "beat the score of person X" - unless they have the permission of "person X" to use their name and create an association.

    A general guideline to follow is to not try to directly use other people's names, accomplishments or fame as a marketing method to draw attention, interest, or credibility to a bounty challenge. (Unless there is permission from that person to do so.)

    If a bounty creator does not follow these recommendations , they may run the risk of the person whose name they utilized or implied without permission to feel harassed or violated, and that person may report the bounty to Twin Galaxies for review and possible bounty privilege revocation.


  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    i think i can follow up my question earlier without singling anyone out, just dont ask me to expalin why i think its bound to happen cause i cant do that without giving prior real stories. i think "implied" obviously theres ways to name people without naming them, my concern isnt that, yeah, ban someone who does that, i'm more concerned about the people who always read between lines and think everything is about them and every time they dont get their way they're harassed. all a sore loser has to do is make a big deal the first their score is bountied, they'll lose that argument, but then any future bounties turn into "well you knew it would upset him and frankly last time was such a big fight i think you are doing this out of anger over the last time" thats my concern. not sure if you know this but people have received cease and desists and threatned lawsuits over scores being beaten.


    an unrelated question is the pay out. if tg has to do all the verification i'm not sure how enforceable that is if they dont hold the reward in escrow. obviosly submission points you have control of. but lets say i put up a cash reward. at that point i can choose to ignore the tgsap adjudiction and decide for myself who gets it unless i put the money into escrow.

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  10. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake


    an unrelated question is the pay out. if tg has to do all the verification i'm not sure how enforceable that is if they dont hold the reward in escrow. obviosly submission points you have control of. but lets say i put up a cash reward. at that point i can choose to ignore the tgsap adjudiction and decide for myself who gets it unless i put the money into escrow.

    Dont know what TG is planning to do in regards to escrow. But a way around it might simply be a survey type system - was the bounty paid out?" Or something if that nature sent to the winning player. Yes (or non-answers) are compared against no's...if the number or percentage or whatever falls to a certain point, then that person loses the ability to create bounties and would have to appeal to TG for reinstatement. Might make a base number of bounties that can be created before the rating goes into effect. Idk the best way, but I think there are ways to create some accountability without escrow (though escrow would simplify the whole process a lot.

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  11. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    i think i can follow up my question earlier without singling anyone out, just dont ask me to expalin why i think its bound to happen cause i cant do that without giving prior real stories. i think "implied" obviously theres ways to name people without naming them, my concern isnt that, yeah, ban someone who does that, i'm more concerned about the people who always read between lines and think everything is about them and every time they dont get their way they're harassed. all a sore loser has to do is make a big deal the first their score is bountied, they'll lose that argument, but then any future bounties turn into "well you knew it would upset him and frankly last time was such a big fight i think you are doing this out of anger over the last time" thats my concern. not sure if you know this but people have received cease and desists and threatned lawsuits over scores being beaten.

    A bounty is either deliberately trying to harass someone, or it isn't. No one can "own" a score. A score is a number, and numbers belong to the universe itself. There should not be "their score on a game" - there only should be "a score on a game."

    There is nothing wrong with setting a goal for participants to achieve or surpass "a score on a game."

    However if a bounty specifically characterizes a score as "someone's score" and sets a goal to beat "that person's score" then a reasonable argument can be made that a person is being targeted.

    TG is specifically an environment that supports fair competition and achievement recognition. It is not reasonable for any TG Member to claim that the simple act of anyone attempting to surpass a score on a game, which also happens to be equal to or higher than a performance achievement of theirs, is fundamentally a form of harassment. That would be a form of attempting to use TG member harassment policy to block competition and that would not be supported.

    TG will consider any harassment complaints seriously. It will be extremely easy for a TG Member to lose their bounty creation privileges if admin determines that there is unsavory intention associated with one of their created bounties.

    Admin's determination on an inappropriate bounty is not like a score dispute. There does not need to be definitive and objective evidence that a bounty is inappropriate. Bounty creators should understand the responsibility that comes with posting a bounty and use thoughtfulness and care when doing so. If a bounty creator can not understand this and consider accordingly, then they should not be creating bounties. Bounties should about fun positive and productive gaming achievement, not about trying to deliberately harm, offend or harass others.

    With all that said, it may certainly be possible that a bounty is created and is well within posted TG Policy - and yet there is a complaint of harassment. If TG determines that the bounty is allowed, that in no way guarantees that the person with the complaint will not pursue other means outside of TG to establish their harassment claims. There is nothing TG can do about that, but to advise that bounty creators keep in mind this possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    an unrelated question is the pay out. if tg has to do all the verification i'm not sure how enforceable that is if they dont hold the reward in escrow. obviosly submission points you have control of. but lets say i put up a cash reward. at that point i can choose to ignore the tgsap adjudiction and decide for myself who gets it unless i put the money into escrow.

    The TG Bounty system will automatically handle the payout of SUBMISSION POINTS and TG ACHIEVEMENT POINTS - however, when the CUSTOM REWARD option is selected by the bounty creator, the entire burden of payout of whatever the reward is, must be handled by the bounty creator.

    As part of the bounty creation process, the bounty creator will need to agree to all the terms and conditions of creating a bounty with the TG System. Those terms explicitly explain that the bounty creator is responsible for the payout of their bounties and that they MUST payout upon any TGSAP verified and authenticated claim that is accepted.

    The bounty creator is able to describe the exact method and procedure of how they will deliver the bounty reward, and so any bounty claimant will know ahead of time what their expectations should be.

    Any non-payout from a bounty creator will result in immediate suspension from the bounty creation system until the matter is resolved, and there will be a permanent and publicly viewable record of the non-payout.

    Assuming that the non-payout matter is resolved, the suspension from the bounty system will end, however the record of the non-payout will remain and potentially impact the perception of any future bounties that the bounty creator may post (think eBay buyer and seller ratings but more impactful).

    For someone to become a successful bounty creator, they must build, establish, and maintain high levels of TRUST with the bounty chasing public. This TRUST is what is going to separate the top creators from the chaff.

    Example: MR. BEAST has established a high level of trust that he will pay out on his bounties without question.

    You can not choose to ignore the results of the TGSAP adjudication of the bounties and decide who gets the award for yourself. That will end your bounty system privileges instantly.

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    Updated 09-17-2022 at 01:51 PM by TWIN GALAXIES
  12. Cxm's Avatar

    You know what I think?

    This will be an awesome way to get people to set some scores on games that have been overlooked. Set a bounty on something with zero scores and get people playing the game. Boom, a track that's been ignored for 20 years is now a viable track.

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  13. lexmark's Avatar

    If naming someone in a bounty could be seen as "harassment" then isn't that the same as naming someone in a dispute?

    I mean, how dare someone dispute someone else's score/opinions/beliefs/whatever !

    Where does this BS political correctness stop?

    What am I missing?


    john


    .


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  14. Barthax's Avatar

    How closely tied will the scoreboard and bounty system be? You've explained that TGSAP is used to verify the bounty and that bounties can, theoretically, be created for anything (unless I've misread). So if a bounty is created for a specific variation on the scoreboard and a score is posted to the scoreboard which would otherwise be sufficient for the bounty ('cause this is bound to happen) which is the outcome: bounty rewarded or not?

    In the above scenario, if the score is posted to the bounty is the variation updated with the score claim or does the bounty claimant have to separately submit to the scoreboard?

    Updated 09-18-2022 at 01:03 PM by Barthax
  15. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    'm more concerned about the people who always read between lines and think everything is about them and every time they dont get their way they're harassed. all a sore loser has to do is make a big deal the first their score is bountied, they'll lose that argument, but then any future bounties turn into "well you knew it would upset him and frankly last time was such a big fight i think you are doing this out of anger over the last time" thats my concern. not sure if you know this but people have received cease and desists and threatned lawsuits over scores being beaten.


    LOL, we've definitely had over-sensitive people who think they can control who gets to use a game they've added or a track they've created or "how dare anyone match my max-out" and my personal favorites are the "yes, you're allowed to do that but I don't like it so stop it" types. This is so going to happen. :P

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  16. Barthax's Avatar

    I noticed a reference to "TG Achievement Points" above and haven't found a clear indicator of what that may entail but suspect it may be related to the achievement-payout credibility hinted at elsewhere.

    What's to stop people creating bounties for every submission they're about to make to the scoreboard and then claiming for themselves immediately after to generate some kind of slant to whatever the payout-related credibility thing is?


    (I applaude that this is going ahead but sorry you seem to have my pessimist side into the conversation!)

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    Updated 09-18-2022 at 01:52 PM by Barthax
  17. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    How closely tied will the scoreboard and bounty system be? You've explained that TGSAP is used to verify the bounty and that bounties can, theoretically, be created for anything (unless I've misread). So if a bounty is created for a specific variation on the scoreboard and a score is posted to the scoreboard which would otherwise be sufficient for the bounty ('cause this is bound to happen) which is the outcome: bounty rewarded or not?

    In the above scenario, if the score is posted to the bounty is the variation updated with the score claim or does the bounty claimant have to separately submit to the scoreboard?

    Bounty leaderboards are separate from TG WR leaderboards. Bounty leaderboards are stand alone and do not directly impact any other leaderboard type.

    When creating a leaderboard, you must specifically submit exactly what a bounty claim requires and defines in the rules to claim that particular bounty.

    For instance:

    1.) You could create a bounty that requires and directs the claimant to post a link to their TGSAP adjudicated WR score on a specific variation on the scoreboard.

    OR

    2.) You could create a bounty that requires and directs the claimant to submit the score directly to the bounty claim leaderboard for your bounty.

    The way a bounty claim is judged is based on the specific rules you set up for your bounty. It's YOUR bounty. It is important to be clear with your rules and what you are specifying for it to be satisfied.

    In the case of #2, if a bounty claimant submits to a bounty and successfully claims it, their score performance would only reside on that bounty leaderboard, and not on the TG WR leaderboard (despite the rules being the same). It would be reflected on the users profile in the bounties claimed section, and would not show up in the WR or Other records section.

    If that user wanted it to appear in the WR or Other records section, they would need to submit that performance to the leaderboard they felt it was appropriate for.

    While it is certain that the bounty system will be used to incentive some WR chasing, most of the fun and greater activity will likely come bounties that are not focused on achieving world records, but fun and creativity that encourages gaming discovery.

    Examples:

    A bounty that lasts 48hours only and will reward the top 5 people who get the most points scored on Arcade Time Pilot in under 3 minutes.

    Most barrels jumped in under 2 minutes on Donkey Kong (no cheats or glitches allowed, but can use any platform).

    Fastest screen crossing to an end slot in Frogger (no cheats or glitches allowed, but can use any platform)

    Stuff like that.






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  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    LOL, we've definitely had over-sensitive people who think they can control who gets to use a game they've added or a track they've created or "how dare anyone match my max-out" and my personal favorites are the "yes, you're allowed to do that but I don't like it so stop it" types. This is so going to happen. :P

    yes, this is a part, but i'd be insincere if i left more out that @lexmark was getting at. there mulitple cases

    1. spite gaming is real, sometimes people really do beat a score just cause they hate the person -- which is fine, provided they limit their hate of course to beating scores and not throwing in all sorts of taunts

    2. some people are every ibt as sesntiive as barthax describes, and even admit thats their complaint, cause in their mind their complaint is valid

    3. some sore losers at least know how they're percieved by others, so they're very simliar to case 2, but in order to defned their freakout, they claim its case 1, and then in turn say case 1 counts as harassment

    4. sometimes cases 1&2 result in the person being accused, actually starting to either

    a. truly hate the person and so start spite gaming and now it really does become a case of points 1&3 however it didnt start that way
    b.contrls their anger, doesnt spite game, but due to optics is accused of it anyway
    c. has to just stop playing any game that will lead to such acccustions, which in my opinion is the real tragedy


    i'm sure there are other cases i dont mean this to be an exhaustive list, but heres the thing, its not a theoretical list, i've seen all these things happen. i'll admit i've spite gamed, i ddi however limit the spite gaming to a game i actually did enjoy and probaly would've gotten to someday anyway. you know, if you have a record in all games that suck i guesss i'll never spite game you, but if you piss me off, and i look down the list and one or two games seem fun, yeah the spite will put me over the edge, and i'll play it, and on at least one occasion receive a, what i'm sure isnt at all legally binding, from delivery to content to evertyting else, cease and desist demanding i quit beating the scores

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  19. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    I noticed a reference to "TG Achievement Points" above and haven't found a clear indicator of what that may entail but suspect it may be related to the achievement-payout credibility hinted at elsewhere.

    TG Achievement points are something new, and will be something that only TG can award for any bounties that it sets up. This creates a pathway to an "official" bounty type. TG Achievement points will be HIGHLY valuable in the forthcoming TG opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    What's to stop people creating bounties for every submission they're about to make to the scoreboard and then claiming for themselves immediately after to generate some kind of slant to whatever the payout-related credibility thing is?

    (I applaude that this is going ahead but sorry you seem to have my pessimist side into the conversation!)

    Bounty creation is going to cost a minimum of 10 SP. On top of that, any SP that you want to pay out to bounty claimants also come from you.

    So if you create a bounty that has 10 claim slots and you want to award 10 SP to a successful claim, You will need to pay upfront to the system, 100 SP for the claim payouts (which effectively are put in escrow) plus the 10 SP for bounty creation. If the bounty is closed, whatever has not been claimed will be returned.

    The bounty creator can close their bounty when they want to, however they can not close their bounty if there are pending claims sitting in adjudication.

    If the bounty is set to auto expire, and the bounty creator closes it before expiration, that may be considered abuse and could warrant loss of privileges.

    As you can see, there is no advantage to someone creating bounties for every submission they're about to make to the scoreboard and then claiming for themselves immediately - Unless they just want to reward themselves in masturbatory fashion for some reason at a high cost of SP. Generally speaking, any abuse of the bounty system will cause loss of privileges, and members will find that the heavy hand of admin playing a very active and punitive role when it comes to any perceived abuse of this system.

    Being able to use or participate in the bounty system is going to be an enormous TG Member privilege and there will be zero-tolerance policies associated with it.


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  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    if these TG points are so desirable, are they only desirable for what they can be spent on? are do you foresee the points themsleves being thier own leaderboad. if so, i'd suggest two leaderboards, most current points and most total ever earned. even if someone has 0 such points after spending them all, you're making me think simply having earned them in the past is its own bragging right and deserves its own ladder

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