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TWIN GALAXIES
01-16-2024 at 08:10 AM

https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/6194/twin-galaxies-statement/5


The matter is closed.


The enormous thanks and appreciation and additional thoughts that Twin Galaxies would like to express to the entire community will be addressed in a future post.


In the meanwhile, immediate questions can be answered on this thread.


Onward.

User comments (82)

Unregistered's Avatar

Tashroudian ought to be forced to refund all his lawyer's fees, and pay all court costs. It's his fault a settlement had to be made. Professional incompetence is one thing, but his clownish behaviour went beyond the inexcusable

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Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This specifically? No.

But I have been thinking about separating TGSAP from all else for a very long time.

Do you think the community is ready for that? It would affect record counts, esi, everything. In that new system only TGSAP will count essentially, everything else would be considered just to be historic.

What are your thoughts?

I don't mean to put words in people's mouths, so I'll try to reflect accurately what I think I'm reading -

I get the sense that some members would have greater "faith" in the leaderboards if the TGSAP scores were separated from the pre-TGSAP scores. Which begs the question - why? Is it based on the belief that TG members didn't care about cheating in their midst or playing by the rules before 2014? That every kid who got his name onto the leaderboard in the 1980s was a crooked little brat who wanted the fame without the work? I'm not sure how to disabuse people of that belief, but I can begin by saying, as someone who's been gaming since the 1970s, cheating sucks and everyone that I knew hated gaming cheaters. When people put up their initials on the game or got their name up on the arcade leaderboard, it was an act of skill and a sign of respect. Does that mean that no one ever cheated? Of course not. And that isn't any different now. Then, like now, it came down to verification and player honesty. And those are still the central ingredients of a trusted scoreboard. The only difference is the methods of proof. And sadly, most of that evidence before 2014 has been lost to time. What we are left with, though, is a record of their achievements on the leaderboards knowing they went through a verification process of that period.

I understand that everyone has their own opinions, so I'll share mine: remarks about the "corruption" or "cheating" of the pre-TGSAP scoreboard due to refs or others are, to put it politely, misinformed. Yes, there are examples of those very things before 2014, but it's grossly unfair to use those examples to tank the entire history of the scoreboard.

Video game competition didn't begin with the TGSAP in 2014 - people were competing fairly, achieving amazing feats, and celebrating their achievements as a community long before Jace bought TG. Please don't let charges of cheating or favoritism besmirch an entire history and community. Yes, I personally recognize that well-placed people enjoyed advantages in comparison with other competitors in the past, but those handful of individuals shouldn't be allowed to crowd out and overshadow the history and legacy of the poor unwashed masses who came here and played within the rules.

Major League Baseball is over 100 years old, but Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hit streak in 1941 isn't archived in a separate historical plane because it was achieved in a era where the players used different equipment or the game was played in a different style or because we don't have easy access to footage of all of DiMaggio's 56 games compared to all the platforms today that stream MLB. And if someone breaks his record, they will be heralded as "breaking" DiMaggio's streak like it was an active "record" to be broken.

It looks like I will probably be in the minority, but I'm deeply opposed to this idea of separation. I think this proposal would go against the very raison d'ętre of Twin Galaxies - celebrating 40 years of gaming. Not just an abstract "yeah, people have enjoyed video games since the 1970s" sentiment, but an actual competitive leaderboard with actual, real scores that you can compete against, beating records that stretch back decades.

And people have recently done that, like Jeff Civitate, who achieved an amazing world record on 720 Degrees, whose name now sits atop the leaderboard in first place by beating the previous record stretching back to 1987. In fact, every record on that track dates from 2010 or earlier.

So under this current proposal, would his score sit atop the leaderboard by itself? And what would Jeff see if he visited Twin Galaxies for the first time *after* this change took place? Would there be an empty TGSAP track for 720 Degrees since all the existing scores are pre-TGSAP? Would all of those tracks on ColecoVision, NES, and other consoles that are populated exclusively with pre-2014 scores be empty when someone was looking to submit to those games?

I guess I fundamentally don't see a value added or attraction in crafting an active competitive leaderboard that only has submissions from 2014 in a historically-minded organization like TG.

Let me end by saying that I understand why community members may be thinking about a separation given the impact of recent events. And I've felt angry about those earlier iterations of TG in low moments, where it felt like TG was little more than a platform for a handful of well-connected gamers who used the rest of us as a mass of human props clamoring around their pedestal of greatness. But then I looked through the scoreboard again, and I imagined all those shy kids who had to build up the courage to finally speak to the gruff-looking arcade managers in order to get them to walk over to the arcade game to check the score and add a verification signature and mail it to Twin Galaxies, or gamers like Dwayne Richard or Rick Fothergill who put in the work and elbow grease in the early 2000s, racking up new high scores or tournament wins. I think we should honor them in the best way possible - by trying to push their names further down the leaderboard.

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Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


This specifically? No.

But I have been thinking about separating TGSAP from all else for a very long time.

Do you think the community is ready for that? It would affect record counts, esi, everything. In that new system only TGSAP will count essentially, everything else would be considered just to be historic.

What are your thoughts?


The option to filter it out per user preference is the best option. My reason is selfish like many others, we prefer proving (and beating) old records.

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Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola



I strongly disagree with this. Thousands of records are legitimate and just because they dont have a video attached to it doesn't mean they didn't happen. Every time somebody like Desidious beats a Tom Duncan score in Burnout, it in some way legitimates those scores because if they are being beaten that means they are posible to get and most certainly real. I have invested thousands of hours trying to beat scores here just to see if they are real and so far 99.9% of them are.

To just disregard those records would absolutely make me feel like my acomplishments in beating scores like Links Crossbow Training Level 1-1 are just thrown to the trash, because now they are earning 0 ESI, after I put a tremendous effort and invested lots of hours in getting 1st place and proving that those records were possible. 80% of Wii scores which is a relatively modern console are pre TGSAP so that would aboslutely kill my motivation to keep playing and submitting to that platform.

I also believe that this would affect new players joining the site, for example new member Scott Hawkins joined the site because he wanted to compete on Geometry Wars Galaxies after the Nintendo servers shut down, so far he has earned 500 ESI points playing that game alone, he is 1st place in that game and #15 in the Wii ESI leaderboard. If you remove the pre-TGSAP scores from that game, the only ones that are left are my scores and his, that would absolutely kill any interest for me in that game and probably his. Cyberscore would have a much more interesting leaderboard to compete on despite their inferior scrutiny.

There is not enough TGSAP scores for me to beat to stay interested in the site to be honest. Most of what's been submitted these days is Atari, Commodore, Android and other platforms that don't interest me. A filter that players can toggle to see only TGSAP, or only pre TGSAP would be a great idea, an actual separation would not.


I appreciate the shout. I've honestly had the best feelings proving and beating Crash Mode records and I can't seem to get enough of them. I recently just joined the Burnout 2 crash mode world record community and am looking forward to use the knowledge I gain from there to eventually get them all. Unfortunately, it will take a while but it will be something I'll be extremely proud of. Sometimes I really wish the Burnout records had videos so i could better understand his gameplay and compare it to my own.

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For me it’s not about recent events I felt this way before the dispute system existed. I was here pretty much just long enough to be vested and not want to leave to start to see the place wasn’t quite why I first signed up

refs were allowed to compete in what they referees this is why I feel analogies to other sports don’t hold up. Where else could a player self enter and referee their own and competitor cores ?

I suppose we cools just remove ref scores but that would give the implication even good refs were bad and to me to just temper those despite those being the concern would be really unfair and hurtful to the good refs image

there’s also magazine imports where the magazine just accepted word

I don’t think most scores are fake though I do think cheaters are more concentrates on top scores and yes when you just talk about first place not all other places im under the impression of a lot of cheating

I’d be fine with all three historical tgsap and merged either by filter or true split

I don’t wanna the ruin fun of anyone who liked the merge but I’d personally have more fun without it

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This is probably a bad idea so file it under brain storming

I do get the old scores affected people’s motivations on new ones so it’s kinda pulling the rug out from under them changing things after

what about a 20/4 forward empty scoreboard

people can submit to the current merged or new one ?

Probably get a rush of subs as we just resubmit our old subs there too and it’s kinda awhwsrd but weird as it sounds it might sdtess all issues

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I'm pretty against the separation, to be honest. It should have happened immediately, or not at all.

Is there really that many bogus pre-TGSAP records? I'd think 99.9% of them are real. We shouldn't let a few sour apples spoil the lot.



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Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock

Tashroudian ought to be forced to refund all his lawyer's fees, and pay all court costs. It's his fault a settlement had to be made. Professional incompetence is one thing, but his clownish behaviour went beyond the inexcusable

Billys scores are not removed and ... " The Mighty Mr. Tash" ....grovels for Billy's amusement. TG lost. HUGE PR win for Billy.


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Suggestion: TG work on retrofitting the available videos into the scoreboard. For those scores with evidence available (not necessarily just video: TG's "INP archive" has MAME INPs, C64 VICE recordings, ZX Spectrum recordings and video submissions), add an individual thread per score and have the scoreboard link to the thread as per TGSAP scores (not an "inactive dispute" thread as per current MAME INP method). The scoreboard must retain their non-TGSAP status as any suggestion of TGSAP would be lying but have the score thread & therefore evidence linked.

Add a filter to the scoreboard for Verified users as to whether the scoreboard should display "missing evidence" scores. This includes the historical scoreboard - this would retain both free access & TG control over access (if permissible with the agreed circumstances).

"Ladder climbing" and "surpassing the best" are very real factors in why people participate. Removal of the pre-TGSAP scores from sitting alongside TGSAP just empties a massive chunk of the scoreboard & TGSAP has not proven to be some full proof utopia scoreboard method: flawed methods should sit alongside other flawed methods. The existence of the flawed methods being cycled out of operation is proof of the evolving nature of the verification efficacy while retaining the history which makes the scoreboard valuable.

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Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

Suggestion: TG work on retrofitting the available videos into the scoreboard. For those scores with evidence available (not necessarily just video: TG's "INP archive" has MAME INPs, C64 VICE recordings, ZX Spectrum recordings and video submissions), add an individual thread per score and have the scoreboard link to the thread as per TGSAP scores (not an "inactive dispute" thread as per current MAME INP method). The scoreboard must retain their non-TGSAP status as any suggestion of TGSAP would be lying but have the score thread & therefore evidence linked.

Add a filter to the scoreboard for Verified users as to whether the scoreboard should display "missing evidence" scores. This includes the historical scoreboard - this would retain both free access & TG control over access (if permissible with the agreed circumstances).

"Ladder climbing" and "surpassing the best" are very real factors in why people participate. Removal of the pre-TGSAP scores from sitting alongside TGSAP just empties a massive chunk of the scoreboard & TGSAP has not proven to be some full proof utopia scoreboard method: flawed methods should sit alongside other flawed methods. The existence of the flawed methods being cycled out of operation is proof of the evolving nature of the verification efficacy while retaining the history which makes the scoreboard valuable.

love this it’s only downside is effort but the end result is all positivr and no negative

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Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


This specifically? No.

But I have been thinking about separating TGSAP from all else for a very long time.

Do you think the community is ready for that? It would affect record counts, esi, everything. In that new system only TGSAP will count essentially, everything else would be considered just to be historic.

What are your thoughts?


This may not be a popular opinion, but I think that anything that was accepted via 'referee' should be separated, simply for the fact that a few of the 'referees' in the past have been proven to be corrupt.

Even putting this aside, when you look at any other kind of 'world record', regardless whatever the record is for, there is always undisputed evidence regarding such record.

Definitely not saying that all 'referee' scores false, just saying that there's enough reasonable doubt (especially with the proven corruption in the past) for them to be considered 'legit records', when there's no actual physical proof of said scores.

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Quote Originally Posted by Pat Larocque

Even putting this aside, when you look at any other kind of 'world record', regardless whatever the record is for, there is always undisputed evidence regarding such record.

I'm scratching my head at this. Could you clarify what "other kind of" is meant to indicate?

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Quote Originally Posted by Barthax


I'm scratching my head at this. Could you clarify what "other kind of" is meant to indicate?

Just meant any world record in general. Whether it be sports, land speed records, etc....anything made 'official'.

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q43

q43's Avatar

Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


This specifically? No.

But I have been thinking about separating TGSAP from all else for a very long time.

Do you think the community is ready for that? It would affect record counts, esi, everything. In that new system only TGSAP will count essentially, everything else would be considered just to be historic.

What are your thoughts?


I think that's a great idea, so long as you reimburse all of the money spent by players pre TGSAP traveling to live events with the promise of a permanent spot on the leaderboard. And all the players that paid to have a score verified by a TG ref during the Jourdan era. And all those that bought certificates, other wise it sounds like breach of contract to me.

Imagine an airline selling a lifetime of unlimited travel cards for $1,000,000 each, then selling the company and the new owners canceling the cards without reimbursement.

Or a hot dog stand accepting money for a pretzel, then sells their stand and the new owner refuses to fill the order, or provide a refund.

Every time I think this place can't possibly get worse it surprises me.


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Quote Originally Posted by Pat Larocque

Just meant any world record in general. Whether it be sports, land speed records, etc....anything made 'official'.

I suggest this is very much in the eye of the beholder only and most "records keeping" organisations have failures that could, in the eye of the beholder, be equated to one or two personnel (or equipment) ... being inadequate.

Guinness is certainly no stranger to controversy & notably so with "tallest man", for example. A great many sports which have drug bylaws have met lax or controversial measurement taking which lead to overturns.

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My thought here have been that if TG wants to be considered serious it should divorce itself from the old scores. Sure, keep an archive, but otherwise? I don't see how it's fair that people are continually trying to compete against wrong, questionable, or faked scores. It's not just about fakes, but about the countless errors as well, ones that don't have video or anything to support them and cant be disproven.


I just don't see what kind of legitimate leaderboard would keep records that can't be proven (and not even have the ability to question them in many cases). The majority are real for sure, but is Twin Galaxies a historical entity or a modern scoreboard? That's the question.

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Quote Originally Posted by andrewg

The majority are real for sure, but is Twin Galaxies a historical entity or a modern scoreboard? That's the question.


Why can't it be both? And why can't beating a record prove it's legitimacy?

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I'd personally love a tab where you could look at new scores and then another for old on every page or something. Not having the old scores doesn't mean you can't still compete and compare against them. In the scheme of things, the old scores dont affect the new competition in most cases, but there are examples (pole position). I mean in some ways I LIKE the "mythology" of thes old scores but when you're an active competitor it feels like a slap in the face. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't and you literally can't know. Just because a score is *possible* doesn't mean it is reasonable or happened and to assume that is foolish given how many errors exist on TG. The (majority?) of old scores were transferred from various magazines and such as admitted by Walter Day in 1997... to the effect of "we will turn a blind eye to not preserving anything before 1998.


Now here's something to consider. Really, there are THREE stages of TG. 1998 and forward generally had video proof and i'd say there's a case to keep those but not the early ones.


1981-1997 (anything goes era)

1997-2014 (mostly unviewable videos)

2014-present (viewable video and challenge era)

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I feel like world records in particular are the issue. You can't have an unprovable world record as the official world record. That's my last thought here. The world record on any game is the best provable score... not "is it possible?", but proof that it actually happened.

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Quote Originally Posted by andrewg

I'd personally love a tab where you could look at new scores and then another for old on every page or something. Not having the old scores doesn't mean you can't still compete and compare against them. In the scheme of things, the old scores dont affect the new competition in most cases, but there are examples (pole position). I mean in some ways I LIKE the "mythology" of thes old scores but when you're an active competitor it feels like a slap in the face. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't and you literally can't know. Just because a score is *possible* doesn't mean it is reasonable or happened and to assume that is foolish given how many errors exist on TG. The (majority?) of old scores were transferred from various magazines and such as admitted by Walter Day in 1997... to the effect of "we will turn a blind eye to not preserving anything before 1998.


Now here's something to consider. Really, there are THREE stages of TG. 1998 and forward generally had video proof and i'd say there's a case to keep those but not the early ones.


1981-1997 (anything goes era)

1997-2014 (mostly unviewable videos)

2014-present (viewable video and challenge era)


Mostly viewable - that's the kicker, the keyword


Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are false then nothing should change. Especially since archived videos are being released as time processes.

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