Originally Posted by Excelliron

Thats like the exception, not the rule, dude.

And i'd say thats one community (dkf) who disagrees that Robbie has it, but even at worst its a dispute between two people, not dozens or hundreds, so its still communal agreement.

Another thing unrelated to Robbie but still on this issue which I forgot to mention in my first comment, submitting criteria and being able to prove a performance is just important and as much a part of the record as the performance itself, which also IMO disqualifies the "dude in his basement" or "back in the 80's" type scenarios..

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly. At first you state that with only a few exceptions that "World Record" is something that can be universally agreed to? <- Correct me here if this is my misunderstanding.

You then go onto to disagree with Twin Galaxies that the non-TGSAP performances are not "World Record" due to lack of proof? <- Again, correct me if this is my understanding, please.

Originally Posted by Excelliron

Thats like the exception, not the rule, dude.

And i'd say thats one community (dkf) who disagrees that Robbie has it, but even at worst its a dispute between two people, not dozens or hundreds, so its still communal agreement.

Another thing unrelated to Robbie but still on this issue which I forgot to mention in my first comment, submitting criteria and being able to prove a performance is just important and as much a part of the record as the performance itself, which also IMO disqualifies the "dude in his basement" or "back in the 80's" type scenarios..

Look i stated it too strongly saying "no agreement" I'll apologize for that but at the same time, you were able to pick any example you want and the pirme example you chose you're now calling an exception. we could keep having examples and i bet thered keep being exceptions

when it came to other sties, i'll admit i dont go to many other sites so maybe i was being too "what if" with it, but do you think if you listed all respected sites otehr would agree with the list, no more no less. cause my guess is while stated generally everyone is gonna agree with you and disagree wti hme, but the moemnt you get into specifics you're gonna find all the people who thought they'd agreed with each other actually have very different feelings on whats "obviosuly everyone agrees this is true".

not only would tg have to have a list of "real sites" they'd have to acknowledge in order to go through and validate the TGWR is the "real world recorc" but then even if that agreed upon list is somehow found, theres all the individual titles. I think of when galloping ghost imported from tg but didnt import the dragons lair score. ok they can do that, they were right to do that do you think tg has the resources to do that for every title like the ghost can? also they just had to do it for them and TG, the suggestions here would require doing it across all sitsr.

so what are the credible sites? apparently dkf doesn make the list. we already know thats gonna have to be kept off, i can imagine the drama jace will get though if he includes respecintg speed run but not dkf, with all the members in comon. even if thats the only disputed site, that'll be no small argument.

OK team. Huddle up!

I only have one thing to say.

TGC on 3!

TGC on 3!

1-2-3...TGC!!!

Fly

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This is very interesting. So this since no one else has put up a score this means it's not a world record? Not sure I agree with that. But The community has spoken :(

Is there any thought into putting all referee scores in the same category? Many many old Arcade scores that are only verified by referees are impossible, done on different settings or at least very questionable and can not be verified by the community. Examples is Space Duel, Alpine Ski, Pole Position, and many more.

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Originally Posted by sammcnear

This is very interesting. So this since no one else has put up a score this means it's not a world record? Not sure I agree with that. But The community has spoken :(

Is there any thought into putting all referee scores in the same category? Many many old Arcade scores that are only verified by referees are impossible, done on different settings or at least very questionable and can not be verified by the community. Examples is Space Duel, Alpine Ski, Pole Position, and many more.

The reason I'm bring up the question about referee scores on this thread is this:
I had to create new tracks like Alpine Ski hardest setting, Space duel 1 ship only, etc (Which currently only have 1 score posted) because the world record scores for the original game tracks are impossible, and it just makes people not want to post scores on those tracks or TG altogether, because they think TG is "fake news". I don't think that fully but some score I do this are cheats or mistakes, such as the Space Duel's WR by David Plummer which was posted as a "referee" event and was not done on the TG settings. This score was only brought down after David honestly announced it was not on TG settings. But that score was #1 for many years. As for Alpine ski the WR holder Eric didn't remember the settings he got his score on. But recently says he does not think it was on TG settings, and that it is probably impossible to get over 350k on TG settings let alone a score of 500k.

So some of these 1 score tracks are to get real verified scores for a game that has false scores on the original track. So in a lot of cases the referee only verified WR scores are wrong!

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Originally Posted by sammcnear

The reason I'm bring up the question about referee scores on this thread is this:
I had to create new tracks like Alpine Ski hardest setting, Space duel 1 ship only, etc (Which currently only have 1 score posted) because the world record scores for the original game tracks are impossible, and it just makes people not want to post scores on those tracks or TG altogether, because they think TG is "fake news". I don't think that fully but some score I do this are cheats or mistakes, such as the Space Duel's WR by David Plummer which was posted as a "referee" event and was not done on the TG settings. This score was only brought down after David honestly announced it was not on TG settings. But that score was #1 for many years. As for Alpine ski the WR holder Eric didn't remember the settings he got his score on. But recently says he does not think it was on TG settings, and that it is probably impossible to get over 350k on TG settings let alone a score of 500k.

So some of these 1 score tracks are to get real verified scores for a game that has false scores on the original track. So in a lot of cases the referee only verified WR scores are wrong!

If you can prove that the scores are impossible to achieve, you can dispute the scores. You need the evidence, but dispute them so they aren't on the leaderboards anymore.

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Originally Posted by thegamer1185

If you can prove that the scores are impossible to achieve, you can dispute the scores. You need the evidence, but dispute them so they aren't on the leaderboards anymore.

Yes the ones I listed do have disputes and Alpine Ski can be proven wrong and I'm getting more evidence than what I already given in the dispute, but some games like Space Duel you can't really prove a score isn't possible except to show the best 5 button game players in the world are not even getting 200k on TG settings.

I think maybe if a referee has gotten 1 score wrong and was proven wrong all that referee's scores should be disqualified. Just like Billy Mitchell 1st lie and all his scores are now disqualified.

or maybe all the referee verified scores should be in a different category or an honorary #1 score but a score that is verified by the TG community with a video should also have the #1 score next to the referee verified scores that can't be verified by the TG community.

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So I'm quite a bit late on this, but I feel like the solution is simple. One counter for tracks where there are more than 1 submission (ESI Records), one counter for inaugural tracks (Inaugural Records), one counter for both combined (TG World Records) which would count for the leaderboard, and one counter for the kind of max-outs I did with Flow Free and LAH did with Smash and other games (Completions). The last one wouldn't count for the leaderboard and leave tracks with competition and inaugural tracks as the only ones that do. IMO inaugural tracks should count because
1) there are old games, both arcade and console-based, that nobody has bothered challenging because they can't get the game and/or

2) the record is seriously up there and nobody thinks they can beat it. This means the first submtter has a de facto world record because nobody has beaten it yet. Whether because nobody has tried it yet or because nobody has been able to beat it or nobody cares is immaterial. It's the highest recorded score for a track and made it through TGSAP.

Going after max-outs with the Completions takes out a ton of the dilution of the world record count, which is the problem most people had that necessitated a change. Taking it a step further and saying a world record is only if other people complete is a step too far and will harm the site if made a long-term policy.

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Originally Posted by voltronforce0

1) there are old games, both arcade and console-based, that nobody has bothered challenging because they can't get the game and/or

This is truly a huge factor! As for the Asteroids 1 ship track (hardest rom set), I have been told by many people that they just don't have access to ROM set 4. But this 1 ship track has been competitive for years on sites like -Asteroids Addicts on Facebook.
Again just because no one else has posted a score doesn't mean people don't want to post or the track has not been competitive. It may just mean they don't have the correct game or they are not on TG. Also It doesn't make the score a non valid World Record!

Just picking up on @Desidious' suggestion of continuing the discussion here from https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...asy-X-NTSC-Sin . I didn't get to respond back to that thread: the below is my intended response inside that thread to Pixe Sukola.

Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

I remember them very well. Just this past week I went back to work and Im working from 12 to 15 hours a day so I dont even have time to play games, submit or go through years of posts.

I'm not about to either so we have a difference of opinion until either of us might revisit the subject(s).

Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

I was refering to Lamund in that comment, you said we made his experience toxic and I said: if he is going to be ofended...

My mistake. It read, to me, that you were referring to myself, hence the misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

My opinion is that based on the points presented before, this isnt a common submission. And after many days of discussion by several members including the creator, an agreement was reached and the creator/submitter himself and despite what you personally think, has requested the TG community to reject these scores.

Voting No.

Then a significant number of people will be incorrectly adjudicating (in my opinion).

I believe you are referencing the "making an agreement" is solidified in LAH16's post of "Everyone, please vote NO on this submission. The submitted score cannot be beaten or done worse than and doesn't belong on the leaderboards."

That was made a month before TG injested everything and confirmed that these scores are valid on the scoreboard. TG has adjusted how this sort of achievement might be exhibited in the stats of the scoreboard: that is true & what you guys have gained. However, again, this is a valid submission and TG supports the submission on its scoreboard.

So: if these are to be rejected then a signficant number of people will be incorrectly using the TGSAP adjudication process... and I'm set to take a nose-dive in CR - potentially to the point that I won't be able to use the scoreboard.

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I'm not in favor of rejecting valid submission even if submitter requests for at least 2 reaosn i've seen and who knows how many other issues may exist

1. even though at the time its deemd as " cause the submitter said so" it later turns into "even the submitter said so, so clearly this is against the rules" and now everyone else has to limit themseslves by what a submiter and some adjudicators self limited themselves on. I'm not in favor of letting a submitter and a few adjudciators unilaterally change the rules for everyone going forward.

1a. so closely related to the above point i'm still counting it as the same point. when this has happened before, the submitter who requests a reject gets upset when soemoen else submits and gets accepted. they tend to want to screw the new player the same way they were screwed, and i get equality and all, but i'm not gonan purposely mistreat someone and falsify reports just to make sure they were equally mistreated

2. anyone who in good faith voted yes is gonna get dinged. anyone who voted no for the wrong reaosn is gonna get a cred boost. it makes a mockery of cred which in turn limits TGSAP abilty to properly weigh votes and opens the door for ftuure cheaters if the current high cred good people lost their cred

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@Jace Hall verified members of TG.com are continuing to vote in bad faith as a form of protest against some user-founded tracks. I'm not asking for an immediate solution, but can someone please provide some unified guidance from TG about what we are supposed to consider when casting a vote in TGSAP?

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@sdwyer138 it is in fact bad faith voting when its voting on grounds that are not part of the submission. Furthermore boards can be moved and edited even if there are accepted submissions so this narrative that you have to reject everything on these tracks to make progress is fallacious. If we're talking about Achievement boards vs Competition boards, the TGSAP process still stands and should be participated in in good faith - consider the claim and the evidence and then vote accordingly. Or abstain. There's always abstinence.

Also I find this ironic - you can't delete a board if it has an accepted score on it. So there's some level of respect for the adjudication process inherent in this, right? So then some turn around and use that reason to vote no during adjudication on a submission that has valid evidence and meets the rules, simply because they'd rather make changes around here. It's baffling me tbh. Working within the confines of a system that protects adjudication history just so you can justify adjudicating improperly.

Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

Or abstain. There's always abstinence.

That's not really a good solution. You are basically saying, "this is someone else's problem to figure out". If submissions could expire after a certain period of time, sure abstinence makes sense.

You're right buddy, it is someone else's problem to figure it out. It's TG's problem to pull the levers and it's our job to discuss issues with them until they feel good about pulling the levers.

And you even thought of a possible condition where abstinence would be fine yet you come out like I'm passing the buck. Y'all need to stop and think about how you're using the system. "Is the submission valid?" yeah but I'm gonna vote NO because reasons - I'm Wyatt Earp and I'm cleaning up this town myself. Pfffft. That's a bit cheeky but this thing has whiffs of vigilante justice in it.

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You fellows need to stop talking about 'abstinence', when you mean 'abstention'

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Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock

You fellows need to stop talking about 'abstinence', when you mean 'abstention'

Dang it you’re right. Appreciate the correction.

Going back to the TG record calculation discussion, and I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this:

My profile shows that I have 3,719 TG World Records, and 2,873 Other TG Records.

On the member leaderboard, it shows I have 6,462 records.

Other members show a similar change in their record numbers.

I think the 3,719 comes from the "more than one record" requirement. It would make sense since I do have a lot of inaugurals.