Originally Posted by Desidious

Something else I would like to share since we are on the topic of other record keeping sites:

Cyberscore let's you submit a score with no proof and it will sit on the learerboard. They have proof validation for photos and/or videos but it doesn't mean much in the bigger picture there. Yet they still get more activity than here.

Yep, and you can filter out those scores without an approved proof. ;) There's no question that they have a "lower standard of proof" than TG. Heck, they even refused masses of my proofs because "it's just too difficult" for them to sift through hundreds of new pieces of footage as they're still in the "moderator/referee" era of tick box peeps... but they have filters... and masses of leaderboards = massive levels of climb options = massive attraction... and they've got over the "you don't play the way we like it and so we'll degrade your reason for being here until you get lost" mode - they geniunely went through a period of kicking off anyone who mentioned Twin Galaxies. :P [Edit:] Oh, yeah, they also went through a period on the forum where the words "Twin Galaxies" were always replaced with "that other scoreboard". LOL

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Originally Posted by Desidious

Something else I would like to share since we are on the topic of other record keeping sites:

Cyberscore let's you submit a score with no proof and it will sit on the learerboard. They have proof validation for photos and/or videos but it doesn't mean much in the bigger picture there. Yet they still get more activity than here.

Because it's much easier to submit and people aren't constantly on one anothers ass about every tiny little thing. That's the assigned adjudicators problem, so things seem more friendly and less personal on those other sites. Seriously, people don't show a boot up here and it's an auto reject, even when it's not a requirement per the rules. Then you have admins at SRC who could care less about everything but the record run, and want you to cut everything from the video except the record attempt. Might have something to do with an EXPERT of the game verifying the runs. Craziness over there!!

People don't want to be forced to watch someone else's submission, then vote on it, just to earn the right to submit their own scores either. You go to cyberscore and speedrun, you can submit immediately. I have a job, I don't need another job just to earn the right to submit a score that takes my own personal time to do. Haha, and I've been around here since 2014 doing it because that's the system. If the community doesn't vote, it goes back to TG refs, which apparently can't be trusted. It's amazing SRC hasn't had as many scandals as TG at this point? All officials are crooked! (Pitch fork and torch face)

What makes you think a Gen Z person is going to want to adjudicate another person's submission when they don't want to work a real job? Not to many people born after 1997 around here for a reason, but they are submitting like crazy over on SRC, Twitch, YouTube. The potential to make money helps I'm sure, but it's not the only reason. Drama factor must be it.

I have mentioned many times I like the filters at Speedrun and wish they were here, and I also like Cyberscores leaderboard system. I do like the ESI system at TG. It's not perfect but I think it does a good job.

Also, TG doesn't have many new competitors because most everything is how fast can you do it nowadays. TG's Speedrun area is so far away from SRC it's not even funny.

I guess that's why I'm a member at all three. I enjoy them all for very different reasons. TG is the most anal of them all, but no ads and the users do control many things on the site. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. SRC has an astronomical amount of annoying ads on every page, but I don't have to do anything other than play games and submit. Cyberscore is the most friendly and relaxed, but the evidence needed to prove a score is minimal, however I really like their leaderboard system. They all have problems.

I like TG, I like the evidence required to have a score approved. But the drama and shenanigans because it's all community driven is TGs real problem. I suggest there needs to be a board of gamers to delegate things, like a township that has a Mayor and elected officials to pass bylaws.

Sorry for the long post, but not much else to say on the matter. I'll keep reading

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thegamer1185, you just summed up the REAL problem with TG perfectly. You are 100% correct!

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Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Because it's much easier to submit and people aren't constantly on one others ass about every tiny little thing. That's the assigned adjudicators problem, so things seem more friendly and less personal on those other sites. Seriously, people don't show a boot up here and it's an auto reject, even when it's not a requirement per the rules. Then you have admins at SRC who could care less about everything but the record run, and want you to cut everything from the video except the record attempt. Might have something to do with an EXPERT of the game verifying the runs. Craziness over there!!

People don't want to be forced to watch someone else's submission, then vote on it, just to earn the right to submit their own scores either. You go to cyberscore and speedrun, you can submit immediately. I have a job, I don't need another job just to earn the right to submit a score that takes my own personal time to do. Haha, and I've been around here since 2014 doing it because that's the system. If the community doesn't vote, it goes back to TG refs, which apparently can't be trusted. It's amazing SRF hasn't had as many scandals as TG at this point? All officials are crooked! (Pitch fork and torch face)

What makes you think a Gen Z person is going to want to adjudicate another person's submission when they don't want to work a real job? Not to many people born after 1997 around here for a reason, but they are submitting like crazy over on SRC, Twitch, YouTube. The potential to make money helps I'm sure, but it's not the only reason. Drama factor must be it.

I have mentioned many times I like the filters at Speedrun and wish they were here, and I also like Cyberscores leaderboard system. I do like the ESI system at TG. It's not perfect but I think it does a good job.

Also, TG doesn't have many new competitors because most everything is how fast can you do it nowadays. TG's Speedrun area is so far away from SRC it's not even funny.

I guess that's why I'm a member at all three. I enjoy them all for very different reasons. TG is the most anal of them all, but no ads and the users do control many things on the site. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. SRC has an astronomical amount of annoying ads on every page, but I don't have to do other than play games and submit. Cyberscore is the most friendly and relaxed, but the evidence needed to prove a score is minimal, however I really like their leaderboard system. They all have problems.

I like TG, I like the evidence required to have a score approved. But the drama and shenanigans because it's all community driven is TGs real problem. I suggest there needs to be a board of gamers to delegate things, like a township that has a Mayor and elected officials to pass bylaws.

Sorry for the long post, but not much else to say on the matter. I'll keep reading

First, a big fat hell no on elected officials on this site. Absolute trash (see: Dave Hawksett)

Second, the main main MAIN problem here: we DON'T need a social aspect here. This isn't Facebook. If we eliminated all the ways a user can flap their gums(fingers whatever) and just get down to brass tracks (i.e. gaming scores submissions tracks etc), only have space for improvement suggestions and errors on the site.. it would be like walking through a field of daisies than what it is now... walking through muddy fecal matter.

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So max out of any kind on any video game will not be included in the Twin Galaxies world record count.

There are max outs on Atari 2600 console system on many other retro console systems games.

So, @TWIN GALAXIES these games will be taken out to.

So now no one has the World Record at TG, on either arcade or MAME platform, because of this ridiculous ruling.

Originally Posted by Don Atreides

They never did. They only had a record incorrectly labeled as "World Record" (as there was no competition). Competition doesn't come from the existence of a scoring mechanism - it can ONLY come from the existence of competitors. The scoring mechanism just facilitates the process.

According to Twin Galaxies they did. Please see the attached document - GWRGE 2008, official scores provided by TG. The proposal to remove this arcade world record, on the basis that there must be at least 2 scores, and only for that reason, is unfair.

Twin Galaxies provided world record scores to GWR in a contractual agreement. There were 1 record world record scores provided to GWR that were published and Twin Galaxies verified they were valid world records. To now change the criteria that they are no longer world records could be deemed that TG has misled the gaming community for over 10 years. GWR and other publications/media may argue they were misled by TG. While TG can change its rulings today, the impact on the past and what this means for the future could become a bigger issue, depending also on who may wish to contest this ruling, and when.

Jace @Jace Hall, I suggest to leave the system as it is, keep it simple, and encourage others to participate, create new tracks, and set new world records.

:)

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@TWIN GALAXIES

So, how this effect current list of Twin Galaxies members on there World Records.

1. What TG wr's that will be taken out? Max outs of any kind from old and new video games?

2. Inaugural TG wr's will be taken out but change to other.

3. What about ESI Expert Skill Index that will affect all Twin Galaxies members, how are you going handle this problem?

Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

So max out of any kind on any video game will not be included in the Twin Galaxies world record count.

Incorrect. Don't think of it as maxout tracks being excluded - it's only games where literally all records on that track have the same score. For example, getting a time of 42.0 seconds on Glass Joe in NES Punch-Out!! is a maxout, but is not being excluded as there are submitted scores other than 42.0 seconds:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/mike-tysons-punch-out-punch-out/nintendo-entertainment-system/ntsc-fastest-ko-tko-of-glass-joe/

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Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

1. What TG wr's that will be taken out? Max outs of any kind from old and new video games?
2. Inaugural TG wr's will be taken out but change to other.
3. What about ESI Expert Skill Index that will affect all Twin Galaxies members, how are you going handle this problem

1. & 2. Tracks where ALL submissions have the same score will be moved out of "TG World Records". This includes tracks with only 1 submission.
3. ESI will not be affected.

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Originally Posted by OOO

The proposal to remove this arcade world record, on the basis that there must be at least 2 scores, and only for that reason, is unfair.

Is it unfair or do you just not like it? TG isn't removing the record from the database, they're just separating the tracks that involve competition from the ones that don't.

I don't know many sports organization rules, but I can say that in the US Equestrian Federation (USEF) a minimum of 3 participants must compete in a class in order for places to be awarded. The reason is because they want the points/ribbons to mean something. I'd guess that's pretty standard in most organized competitions.

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Originally Posted by OOO

According to Twin Galaxies they did. ... Twin Galaxies provided world record scores to GWR in a contractual agreement. There were 1 record world record scores provided to GWR that were published and Twin Galaxies verified they were valid world records.

To my recollection, Twin Galaxies just provided them database access and they picked the scores they wanted to post. Ironically, in that picture just above your score is a set of maxout scores on Pong.

Originally Posted by OOO

To now change the criteria that they are no longer world records could be deemed that TG has misled the gaming community for over 10 years. GWR and other publications/media may argue they were misled by TG. While TG can change its rulings today, the impact on the past and what this means for the future could become a bigger issue, depending also on who may wish to contest this ruling, and when.

You're obviously trying to imply litigation to bend things your way. I have no dog in the fight, but I wish you the best of luck with that. :)

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Originally Posted by OOO

So now no one has the World Record at TG, on either arcade or MAME platform, because of this ridiculous ruling.

This isn't true though. The scores aren't going anywhere. They are simply being relabeled to better reflect that on TG they currently have no competition.

I think it is worth asking what makes a world record in gaming?

I think we can all agree that a proclamation of such on TG is not it - see speedrun and other scoring communities.

What makes a world record, TG or otherwise, is having the best known and reasonably documented performance. This ruling doesn't change that the arcade and MAME scores for Professor Pacman remain WRs because those scores are known as maxes. It simply changes how they are codified on this site.

To refer to my previous post and pose the question again, what does this really change? One can point to the professor pac board here as proof of a WR. Anyone looking for quick confirmation would see it at the top and accept that it is. Anyone looking to dig a little deeper would dig a little deeper and then see that it is.

If the only concern is having some different onsite words with it, then one just needs to generate some competition on the title in question.

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Ok, a few items.

1.) I want to point out that, in my opinion, this is a good discussion, and it's great that people are sharing their viewpoints. These are the kinds of discussions that the TG community should be having. Everyone has an opinion, and while some may be at odds, the intention behind everyone's opinion is to try to make the platform better. I have an appreciation for how good this is, and how far TG and its community have come for this to be happening and helping move things forward in such civil fashion.

2.) Since people keep mentioning other sites, I want to be clear that TG believes that other competitive sites should do whatever is best for them and their communities. Most of those sites work very hard to get visitors so that, ultimately, they can show them ads on their site to make money. As such, they need to balance how heavy their rules and systems should lean to support that important goal. Their business model somewhat dictates the nature of their existence, and there is nothing wrong with that. It can, however, potentially lead to less restrictive adjudication models and other types of friction reduction to encourage more mass visitation and participation. That kind of framework can possibly affect the quality of the final product output (the performance, the data surrounding it, and the veracity of the adjudication).

Additionally, TG is not trying to compete with, or replace, any other competitive leaderboard site. I've said this many times. TG actually wants to support player achievement wherever it is. That is why we try to list other sites' achievements on TG Player profiles. All of it is good, and it is okay for there to be differences. There is room for everybody. TG members can and should participate on any site where their skills and talents can be appreciated! TG's view is that there is only ONE TRIBE, the tribe of people who enjoy the activity and culture of playing video games!

3.) TG is continually looking towards the future, aiming to build on a vision that ensures growth and sustainability. Our focus is on surpassing our past achievements in user engagement and participation. The real competition is with ourselves, striving for continual improvement. We are aware of industry trends that might not be immediately obvious to the wider community, such as potential significant changes to platforms like Twitch. These insights are crucial as we plan for the future, ensuring TG's enduring presence.

The essence of Twin Galaxies lies in its uniqueness; it stands apart, not by emulation of other sites, or trying to recruit members of other site's communities, but through its distinct identity. This assurance comes with the knowledge that achievements recognized by TG carry significant weight, a value that only grows with time. This importance often becomes the target of criticism, yet the very attention it attracts underscores its relevance. If TG's accolades were inconsequential, they would not be subjected to scrutiny. In my opinion, TG represents the pinnacle of video game achievements, not just by acknowledging them but by actively promoting and advocating for their recognition indefinitely. However, this commitment to excellence necessitates a meticulous and, sometimes, more stringent adjudication process compared to others, presenting both challenges and advantages. Rest assured, TG's dedication to continuous improvement aims to enhance this balance.

4.) For absolute clarity, the changes taking place on this inaugural issue are to improve the distinction, credibility, and recognition of TG World records specifically. There are many kinds of achievements in video gaming. Like setting an inaugural (which is an achievement unto itself), getting a TG World Record is just one of them, and refining a TG World Record to a more clear definition is to the benefit of everyone.

This change clarifies that a Twin Galaxies World Record is the result of competition conducted under the same rule standards. A TG World Record cannot exist without competition. It's that simple. A TG World Record is a comparative result, and that comparison stems from the other performances on the leaderboard the record is on.

This does not diminish any other kind of video game achievement, at all. This only helps clarify what a TG World Record is and is not.

5.) Regarding inaugurals: Currently, inaugurals are being relegated to the "Other Records" category, but it is clear that is not the best solution - so instead we are going to create an additional statistic called "Inaugural Records" which is where inaugural standalone Rank 1 records will be counted until they eventually receive competition and can qualify as a TG World Record (assuming they remain in the Rank #1 position).

Additionally, we will be creating an "Inaugural Record" TG Certificate that can be minted and acquired if desired. This will further the recognition and uniqueness of an inaugural record.

Once an inaugural record receives competition, it will additionally be listed in a user's TG World Records (or Other Records, depending on rank).

Please give TG some time to implement this.

6.) Regarding maxouts: This was stated earlier but I will repeat for those that missed it -

There are two different kinds of maxout tracks and they will not be treated the same.

Maxout tracks designated for "Achievement Only" status are those where the established rules always produce a singular, unvarying score as the only outcome. This effectively transforms achieving the maxout score into merely completing a task, with the final score serving solely as evidence of this accomplishment.

Conversely, tracks that can have a maxout such as Pac-man [points] remain outside this category. Despite the possibility of achieving maxout scores through perfect gameplay, these tracks also accommodate a range of non-perfect scores on the leaderboard. No changes will be made here.

So, given the above, in answer to the post made by user OOO here, NO CHANGES would take place for the Professor Pac-Man Arcade track.

Hopefully, all this helps to clarify some items.

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Originally Posted by thegamer1185

I'm not understanding the need for Max Out scores to be categorized differently from other scores? Almost every single game has a possible max out score and fastest possible time to complete. They take focus, skill, strategy, and most importantly TIME to achieve those scores. Most people don't have the time to sit and play that long even though they might have the skill. I haven't even mentioned the amount of time one spends practicing to achieve those scores.

Every single race track has a "fastest time possible", technically then every TG record that is time based should be in the Max Out category? That seems a bit extreme, but yet it's still accurate.

I don't even see the need for Inaugural scores at this point either. I can create any track I want, submit to it immediately, and there is my inaugural score. I'm still a fan of ESI though. It seems to the one main driving component to the competition around here for most people.

im playing catch up so i'll try not to commnet on a lot of things, sorry if someone alreayd gave a better answer, but heres mine

yes, every game is either a max out (or min out for racing), or a marathon. so when people bash either they may just not be thinking through everything ends there. At least to me theres 2 issues with max-outs, that dont apply to all maxouts
1. first and foremost, ties. to me its more about i think tied scores, maxout or not, or less imporessive than a first place thats not tied. I'd actualy be happier giving tied world records its own seperate count, plus that avoids the complexity of worrying if thers a better max noone knows about yet. Ties is realy whats its about to me when i push this
2. while not true across the board, thers no shortage of insanely easy maxouts where sure its possible to not max it, but so dang easy to do so that it may as well just be a pass/fail.
3. not to look down on maxouts, just the oppsoite, i do think they're cool, and i think its its own competiton to see how can get the most maxouts. i'd enjoy them taking out not simply for me viewing them as different (in some ways less) than untied records, but thats the negative view, theres also the very positive view that i jsut plain want credit for all my maxouts.

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Originally Posted by sdwyer138

Here he is agreeing that everything should be removed. Why TG can't just remove something at the request of the creator is beyond me. Surely that would be a simpler solution? He has even stated privately that he does not plan on returning this time. Instead we have a new calculation that is confusing to anybody not reading this thread, and was not exactly asked for by most.

i'm answering more theoretically, not saying its the case here. But once someone can request their scores removed theres alot of issues with that that have alreayd been covered, but additionally, it increases the motivation to bully others into that. sometimes denying someone a right gives them more rights .by denying people the right to screw themselves, you protect them from bullies.

i do want to be clear i'm not accusing anyone of bullying here, but i do think it started to push up to the line without quite crossing over

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Bullies often don't recognise what they do but only bullies define a line which is "safe" to push someone up to and it's always just beyond what they do.

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Originally Posted by Barthax

Bullies often don't recognise what they do but only bullies define a line which is "safe" to push someone up to and it's always just beyond what they do.

Fair enough and I’m sensing snip like I’ve seen whole time with desidious who showed uncharacteristic restraint and just got wacked anyway being thrown in her face the good behavior now is mockable precisely because if’s such an improvement

I’d like to point out I’ was and still am trying to phrase things to not offend either side

you ok man ? We all have our triggers and days I appreciate all the forgiveness I get and wanna pay it forward but youre being uncharacteristically snippy lately

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Max out are not easy to achieve, some take time, some to lot of skill and focus.

Inaugural TG wr's or 1 record score or time that is almost impossible to beat Twin Galaxies members do not want to submit to.

Then you have Twin Galaxies members that do not like that game and will not submit to and make threads on how much they hate the game telling none should play it.

The vast majority of Twin Galaxies members prefer retro classic video games than modern games. And will stay away from playing these games.

Hopefully everything gets worked out.

We all love playing arcade games

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Fair enough and I’m sensing snip like I’ve seen whole time with desidious who showed uncharacteristic restraint and just got wacked anyway being thrown in her face the good behavior now is mockable precisely because if’s such an improvement

I’d like to point out I’ was and still am trying to phrase things to not offend either side

you ok man ? We all have our triggers and days I appreciate all the forgiveness I get and wanna pay it forward but youre being uncharacteristically snippy lately

Whatever anyone wants to call me with this situation, I'm fine with. I've stuck my foot in my mouth many times but this isn't one of them. If I'm not liked for trying my best to push for a leveling playing field for everyone, giving a place to submit non-competitive scores, and stopping the abuse of a system in place and using it for something not intended.. so be it. I'm not doing this to specifically target LAH16, however, I never thought inaugural records should count as a world record. If anyone should really have beef with the man it should absolutely be Roger but that is an off site-ish issue and between them alone.

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i wonder if this can be solved with termnilogy? what if

world record = what it always equaled here
super duper awesome record = what the new defintion of world record wil be

now gratned you need a better name. something that both lets people know what it is but doesnt outright claim to be better. "king of the hill" record, its not enough to be first, you have to knock down anyone who tires to match you. "defended world record" not perfectly semantically accurate since if you got top score first you never really defended it, but blose enough and it makes the point it beats everyone else. i'm sure other people can come up with a better word

the barthax/lah16/and to some degree me side is that people should be allowed to play on tracks they want. well by the same logic noone can complain (without being a hypcorite at least) about a track that just tracks the records that are fun for others to compete on.


world record count is a track, its just the the rules of the track are about which other tracks to pull from. ooo made a lot of good points that i wanted to click like but i disagree with his main content and conclusion i just loved some of the points building to it. changing the rules for wr count is in fact changing rules on a preexisting track. if anyone doesnt like the wr track they should make a new one ;)