Originally Posted by Desidious

Sure they can be "achievement tracks" but it's simply a bandaid put over what he originally wants to do.

Not sure if I understand the "bandaid" comment. What you described would exactly be a track that is literally a task completion/achievement track. Where might you see the labeling as deficient?

Originally Posted by Barthax

The scoreboard does not expand without an inaugural... So what is left to entice someone to spend random hours of voting then 13+ SP on creating a new track and submit to it when the inaugurals have no value in any metric of the scoreboard?

This statement would then suggest that the "Other Records" metric has no value? Is that what you mean? If so, then should we remove the "Other Records" from the stat listing underneath the user info boxes?

"Other Records" are where the inaugurals are stored until further competition moves their categorization, but if users see that general category as having no value, we may want to look at that and see why.

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Not sure if I understand the "bandaid" comment. What you described would exactly be a track that is literally a task completion/achievement track. Where might you see the labeling as deficient?

I was asking how it could be done if they wanted to track an achievement that wasn't set up like a score or time and not use the Bounty System.

Originally Posted by Emayl

I'll wait to see how this pans out, but it sounds like maxouts are being relegated to a second citizen status, as has been done with inaugural scores with the current update. And that's too bad.

I get the change to inaugurals, even if I don't agree. Maybe there's an argrument for maxouts as well, and yes, I read the previous thread. But I can't help but feel a bit kicked to the curb after dedicating a very long time to practicing and achieving my arcade maxout, playing nearly four hours doing it and then getting it redesignated under a new term. There have only been three proven maxouts on the game since 1985, and I did mine specifially for a TG world record (and was the first to do it at TG). Now it sounds like a TG world record may not even possible on the game.

I'll of course wait to see what action TG takes on maxouts, I may be talking way ahead of myself. But it sure sounds like I'm going to be disappointed. I know I'm a small fish in this pond and this is what a lot of the cool kids asked for, but dang.

The tracks designated for "Achievement Only" status are those where the established rules always produce a singular, unvarying score as the only outcome. This effectively transforms achieving the maxout score into merely completing a task, with the final score serving solely as evidence of this accomplishment.

Conversely, tracks such as Pac-man [points] remain outside this category. Despite the possibility of achieving maxout scores through perfect gameplay, these tracks also accommodate a range of non-perfect scores on the leaderboard.

I hope this clarification is helpful.

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Originally Posted by Desidious

I was asking how it could be done if they wanted to track an achievement that wasn't set up like a score or time and not use the Bounty System.

All a track creator has to do is specify the win conditions in the rules. This has always been available for people to do.

The rules can simply instruct submitters to just place a score of 1 (or whatever) in the score field, and upload their video showing the task completion.

When TG finishes the "Achievement Only" setting for tracks, we will likely make a track that is created under this setting just place a score of 1 in the score field automatically or something like that for every submission to it.

But even before that happens, track creators can just specify what to input as part of the rules.

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I'm not understanding the need for Max Out scores to be categorized differently from other scores? Almost every single game has a possible max out score and fastest possible time to complete. They take focus, skill, strategy, and most importantly TIME to achieve those scores. Most people don't have the time to sit and play that long even though they might have the skill. I haven't even mentioned the amount of time one spends practicing to achieve those scores.

Every single race track has a "fastest time possible", technically then every TG record that is time based should be in the Max Out category? That seems a bit extreme, but yet it's still accurate.

I don't even see the need for Inaugural scores at this point either. I can create any track I want, submit to it immediately, and there is my inaugural score. I'm still a fan of ESI though. It seems to the one main driving component to the competition around here for most people.

Clarification on Record Classification: Records on tracks with only a single entry will no longer contribute to a user’s “TG World Records” tally. These records will be classified under the “Other TG Records” category. A track must have at least two records for the leading record to be counted towards a user's “TG World Records” total. This adjustment has led to an updated recalibration of everyone’s “TG World Records” and “Other TG Records” statistics to align with this new guideline.

What!?

Oh my god, congratulations on diluting your entire database and making TG even more confusing to new comers...

Say my game of choice has a high score which no one can beat (which it does, Ridge Racer), no one is going to submit for second place. Why would they? Thus this makes the record completely void for it's lifetime. Why would anyone submit to be second? no one will and you are going to end up like me with tons of legit single high scores which aren't considered TG WR's... (not that this means much anymore anyway but still..)

Sorry but this is the dumbest move I've seen from TG yet.

Records on tracks with only a single entry will no longer contribute to a user’s “TG World Records” tally.

TG just made expanding the database functionally worthless.

@Barthax completely agree.

I'm glad i've been using SRC a lot more lately as I can see me not even submitting to TG for multiple reasons. I appreciate the attempt to innovate but this is seriously stupid.

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Originally Posted by Jace Hall

This statement would then suggest that the "Other Records" metric has no value? Is that what you mean? If so, then should we remove the "Other Records" from the stat listing underneath the user info boxes?

"Other Records" are where the inaugurals are stored until further competition moves their categorization, but if users see that general category as having no value, we may want to look at that and see why.

That is a personal metric, not a scoreboard metric. Keeping a tally is a personal thing - that hasn't changed. Chasing a leaderboard is a scoreboard thing. There's no attraction of surpassing/taking down someone else without a method of comparison (because there are so few methods supplied to compare people) so the scoreboard has been lessened by removing any scoreboard tally which inaugurals were supplying.

+ the numerous other ways people are citing issues with this change in support for inaugurals having more meaning (reduced cost, alternative tallies, etc.).

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Records on tracks with only a single entry will no longer contribute to a user’s “TG World Records” tally. These records will be classified under the “Other TG Records” category. A track must have at least two records for the leading record to be counted towards a user's “TG World Records” total.

IMO:

I think this decision is one of the worst in Twin Galaxies history.

For example the world record on Professor Pac-man arcade, which stands for over 35 years, and was recognized by Twin Galaxies as such, is no longer a TG World Record. It is now Other TG Record. Other TG Record does not mean World Record. It has meant in the past at TG, 2nd place or lower. Why has this happened? Because there is only one record in the TG database on this platform, not two or more. How is this the fault of the world record holder after 35 years of competition?

How are 2 records enough competition for a world record, yet 1 record is not enough. That makes no credible sense. I have the world record on Professor Pac-man with the max. score of 999,999 on MAME. Now this score is not a World Record as there is only one record in the TG database for MAME, not 2.

So now no one has the World Record at TG, on either arcade or MAME platform, because of this ridiculous ruling.

Do gamers now need to ask their friends to submit a 2nd record so now through a ridiculous rule they become World Records again? Or will TG keep increasing the number of records to 3 or more for a World Record in the future? Are you inadvertently encouraging phoney accounts to be created to combat this rule?

This is only one example of hundreds of cases at TG.

Under how it was, if Andrew Pete Mee and many others have the highest score with hundreds of world records, congratulations to them. No matter how many scores are submitted to a track, they are the top scorer and world record holder, where others can compete at any time they want on the same track. They should not need at least one other person to submit a score to validate their world record, as the submission process at TG takes care of that already.

Our goal is to foster an environment where every member feels their efforts and achievements are valued and recognized . This is not correct, many don't as a part of every in this case.

Does the TG Certificate now say Other World Record for a previous World Record, or does it now not produce a certificate because it is not a World Record when it was previously?

If a gamer sets the high score on a game then it is a world record. This is how it was since 1981. Remember when arcade games were first released, and will be in the future, where the first score in is the world record, not Other TG record. Heaven forbid the first accepted TG score on Mortal Kombat 59 will not be a world record. The Other TG record should remain as all other scores that are 2nd place or lower. Please use the kiss principle. I am a big supporter of TG and want to see it do very well, but this change is wrong and needs to be removed. Please remove the change of ruling.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by OOO

Records on tracks with only a single entry will no longer contribute to a user’s “TG World Records” tally. These records will be classified under the “Other TG Records” category. A track must have at least two records for the leading record to be counted towards a user's “TG World Records” total.

IMO:

I think this decision is one of the worst in Twin Galaxies history.

For example the world record on Professor Pac-man arcade, which stands for over 35 years, and was recognized by Twin Galaxies as such, is no longer a TG World Record. It is now Other TG Record. Other TG Record does not mean World Record. It has meant in the past at TG, 2nd place or lower. Why has this happened? Because there is only one record in the TG database on this platform, not two or more. How is this the fault of the world record holder after 35 years of competition?

How are 2 records enough competition for a world record, yet 1 record is not enough. That makes no credible sense. I have the world record on Professor Pac-man with the max. score of 999,999 on MAME. Now this score is not a World Record as there is only one record in the TG database for MAME, not 2.

So now no one has the World Record at TG, on either arcade or MAME platform, because of this ridiculous ruling.

Do gamers now need to ask their friends to submit a 2nd record so now through a ridiculous rule they become World Records again? Or will TG keep increasing the number of records to 3 or more for a World Record in the future? Are you inadvertently encouraging phoney accounts to be created to combat this rule?

This is only one example of hundreds of cases at TG.

Under how it was, if Andrew Pete Mee and many others have the highest score with hundreds of world records, congratulations to them. No matter how many scores are submitted to a track, they are the top scorer and world record holder, where others can compete at any time they want on the same track. They should not need at least one other person to submit a score to validate their world record, as the submission process at TG takes care of that already.

Our goal is to foster an environment where every member feels their efforts and achievements are valued and recognized . This is not correct, many don't as a part of every in this case.

If a gamer sets the high score on a game then it is a world record. This is how it was since 1981. Remember when arcade games were first released, and will be in the future, where the first score in is the world record, not Other TG record. Heaven forbid the first accepted TG score on Mortal Kombat 59 will not be a world record. The Other TG record should remain as all other scores that are 2nd place or lower. Please use the kiss principle. I am a big supporter of TG and want to see it do very well, but this change is wrong and needs to be removed. Please remove the change of ruling.

Thanks

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It IS the worst decision. Also, as well as the above reasons what about arcades which have a score but actually don't even exist anymore for someone to add an additional score. Ridge Racer Full Scale is sadly now such a case as the machine i used has been destroyed and it is largely considered the last one left.

It's now impossible for TG to recognise a WR on an arcade which can't even be contested anymore. SRC on the other hand does recognise it as 1st place and thus a WR. Why do i mention SRC? Because all TG is doing is devaluing its own database vs the competition and making a "TG WR" even less credible.

I'm not even saying this for my benefit i could care less if i have a "TG WR" or not as i know over on SRC there are some better scores. I'm saying it because TG is literally hurting itself massively by doing this and it's sad to see.

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I like like like the changes that are happening. I guess you can say that I love them, but I' guess I'll wait till I see it in effect. 😃

Fly

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I think this is a great step forward.

A couple things I want to chime in on:

2nd place scores: plenty of people do and will continue to submit less than 1st place scores for a number a reasons. Don't confuse your preferences for score submission with everyone's.

Concerns about scores no longer being "WR's": this is so subjective to what one wants as a gamer. I have seen people with a 1st place TG score claim a WR when it is clearly not. I have also seen folks with a 1st place TG score recognize their score is not the best anywhere. Outside of a stat on this page I don't see this as a change. Folks here will be able to recognize the difference between a score like professor pacman and another inaugural score. There is nothing stopping someone from saying they have a WR (whether true or not) and in the instance of media, again, the score is still top of the leaderboard and most media aren't going to dig deep in to understand the difference of a worded stat (and those that do will then be able to make the determination of the value of that score).

Making a score no longer inaugural: popular games will overcome this on their own. For others you might have to put some effort in - bounties, competitions, incentives, etc... if i go run an 18 meter sprint tonight and claim i have the WR then it's bogus imo. Having the only 18 meter run that fits a certain sub criteria does not equal a record of any sort. Maybe I'm so fast that no one can beat me. Maybe no one wants to bother with an off event. In the latter we all no it's not a WR. In the former, it might be my job to make that case as I feel is necessary

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Originally Posted by OOO

How are 2 records enough competition for a world record, yet 1 record is not enough. That makes no credible sense. I have the world record on Professor Pac-man with the max. score of 999,999 on MAME. Now this score is not a World Record as there is only one record in the TG database for MAME, not 2.

Its a great record. But to be a "TG World Record" there is now an added criteria of competition. I would say "Other Records" might not be the best wording. I don't have a good phrase for it. Non-TG First Places? It needs to be something that conveys that it is a first place score, but doesn't quite check all the boxes of being a TG World Record.

How many different types of first place scores do people want to track? TG World Records, Other Records, Achievements, etc etc etc.

I also don't like using the phrase Max-Outs. As pretty much every track has a theoretical max-out. There are tracks on 101-in-1 Explosive Megamix where 5 people have the max score on a track. Is it possible someone someday will submit a lesser score. Technically yes. But there are also tracks were people worked hard to figure out the top score and there are 5 or more people with that max, but also plenty of people with lesser scores.

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Originally Posted by OOO

How are 2 records enough competition for a world record, yet 1 record is not enough. That makes no credible sense.

A person with no competition is not competing. A World Record holder is a person who is the best amongst all other competitors in the world. You cannot be the best if there are no other competitors.

Originally Posted by OOO

So now no one has the World Record at TG, on either arcade or MAME platform, because of this ridiculous ruling.

They never did. They only had a record incorrectly labeled as "World Record" (as there was no competition). Competition doesn't come from the existence of a scoring mechanism - it can ONLY come from the existence of competitors. The scoring mechanism just facilitates the process.

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Originally Posted by Don Atreides

They never did. They only had a record incorrectly labeled as "World Record" (as there was no competition). Competition doesn't come from the existence of a scoring mechanism - it can ONLY come from the existence of competitors. The scoring mechanism just facilitates the process.

LOL, completely at odds with any other record-keeping site. :P

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Just to cover something before this all settles and someone cries foul later:

If "two is the magic number" to determine a "World Record" has the algorithm been implemented such that it is two distinct entities on the scoreboard or is that two submissions potentially from the same user (cause this already exists in the database)?

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2nd place scores: plenty of people do and will continue to submit less than 1st place scores for a number a reasons. Don't confuse your preferences for score submission with everyone's.

I disagree. Some titles yes this will apply (Donkey Kong for example) but most others and i do mean most... no one will bother to vote, gain submission points, then use them to submit just for second place. Why would anyone waste their time especially on a game with only one other first place score. I just don't see it happening what so ever. The grind isn't worth the payoff.

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Originally Posted by Barthax

LOL, completely at odds with any other record-keeping site. :P

Yeah, and other sites are full of garbage. Being different ≠ being wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rotunda

I disagree. Some titles yes this will apply (Donkey Kong for example) but most others and i do mean most... no one will bother to vote, gain submission points, then use them to submit just for second place. Why would anyone waste their time especially on a game with only one other first place score. I just don't see it happening what so ever. The grind isn't worth the payoff.

Just comes down to what one's priorities with a submitting are. If someone is only looking for first place scores then sure.

But arguably, your scenario doesn't change in the current process. Someone who can't get first and won't submit with this new process won't submit currently.

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