Originally Posted by Snowflake

(i refuse to call it abuse since i'm a big believer in hate the game not the player)

I'll call it abuse for you. When a person willingly steps on and over others to get what they want, it's the player just as much.

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

all someone has to do to beat this system then is just have a friend submit as well and bam the achievement slips through the innaugraul checking crack slipper buster.

This shouldn't be a problem, or at least not a big problem because:

1. Yay, more submitters!
2. It requires a different score (not possible on some achievement tracks)
3. ↑ESI value will entice ESI hunters.

It is possible to do a max score then have someone else put in a junk score to make the max a "world record", but at that point, they've done enough work they can have it. :) If someone juggles multiple accounts to do this, down comes the Ban Hammer.

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

... but its also very misleading to call it "other records" since that imples beaten by the record holder. i too would like to see it have its own category.

Hmm... not sure if I agree with this. "Other Records" should only imply that the user has records of "other" types and not necessarily imply the nature of what they are.

Think of this comparison:

User: Captain MyCaptain

Auto Insurance Records - 4
Other Records - 25

"Other Records" could be Dental, Medical, mortgage, etc.

The TG Other Records category is a catchall for the fact that TG cannot list all categories for possible record types in the little info box that appears under a user name. If someone wants to see with the "Other Records" are, they can visit that users profile page.

Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

i am alittle surprised innaugrals are being attacked but maxouts arent. maxouts have alot more in common with achievements than innaugrauls do. trying to temper my criticism since i appreciate the effort, and of course you're never gonna have everyone agree on everytring so just putting it out there. innaugrals dont bother me, cause if t heyr're so bad someone can beat them. and if someone ties them then you can treat it as a maxout. i've always felt just seperating "untied world record" from "tied world record" would automatically solve all the other problems.

Maxouts are more or less getting partially addressed when we finish with the "Pending Modification" mentioned in the original post.

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Originally Posted by Desidious

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word novelty but I do get what you mean. Mine was more focused on achievements that aren't focused on the way tracks have been done here. There are many many in-game achievements that can be track that doesn't involve numbers I believe.

Generally, the Bounty system deals with these kinds of tracks (task completion - numbers dont need to be involved for that)

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Hmm... not sure if I agree with this. "Other Records" should only imply that the user has records of "other" types and not necessarily imply the nature of what they are.

Think of this comparison:

User: Captain MyCaptain

Auto Insurance Records - 4
Other Records - 25

"Other Records" could be Dental, Medical, mortgage, etc.

The TG Other Records category is a catchall for the fact that TG cannot list all categories for possible record types in the little info box that appears under a user name. If someone wants to see with the "Other Records" are, they can visit that users profile page.

Does that make sense?

this is why i used the word "misleading" not false. cant the same be said about "world records", they are quite literally world records, yet the whole point of this fix if i udnerstand properly wasnt about a matter of fixing wrongess/correctness but misleading

anyway what i cared about was trying get an explict other metric, but i'm not trying to argue my word choice (need to save my arguing forsome other points) just trying to clarify what i meant since it seemed misread.

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Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Generally, the Bounty system deals with these kinds of tracks (task completion - numbers dont need to be involved for that)

And that would be all well and good IF you wanted to create a bounty for something of that nature.. but what if you don't?

I'm not trying to target but this is a good example: say LAH16 wants to track the fact that he beat certain bosses or monsters in Final Fantasy X. He realizes there's no way to track doing something like that (which would require a checklist of sort) so he just creates "Gil earned" tracks that showcases he beats the the monsters/bosses. Sure they can be "achievement tracks" but it's simply a bandaid put over what he originally wants to do.

So surely there has to be another method to track some things that aren't number related than just using the bounty system.

The scoreboard does not expand without an inaugural... So what is left to entice someone to spend random hours of voting then 13+ SP on creating a new track and submit to it when the inaugurals have no value in any metric of the scoreboard?

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

i hear ya though. if we're gonna be honest the metrics are there casue people like them, i feel like even last place should get something like 1/2 esi, some motivation to submit

100% agree on the last place score having value on a competitive scoreboard. I've mulled this over about a logical proof to support this position and modify the ESI calculation to make it happen. I don't think this is the right place and time for this discussion as it will quickly get buried in this thread or pooped on by quickly without chance for debate. I just wanted to pipe-in and say your not alone in your thinking.

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Originally Posted by Barthax

The scoreboard does not expand without an inaugural... So what is left to entice someone to spend random hours of voting then 13+ SP on creating a new track and submit to it when the inaugurals have no value in any metric of the scoreboard?

The ONLY value inaugural submissions should have is to entice competition if and only if folks (in this really small ass community) want to. That's why I believe the cost for inaugural submissions should be lowered to account for that.

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Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Hmm... not sure if I agree with this. "Other Records" should only imply that the user has records of "other" types and not necessarily imply the nature of what they are.

Think of this comparison:

User: Captain MyCaptain

Auto Insurance Records - 4
Other Records - 25

"Other Records" could be Dental, Medical, mortgage, etc.

The TG Other Records category is a catchall for the fact that TG cannot list all categories for possible record types in the little info box that appears under a user name. If someone wants to see with the "Other Records" are, they can visit that users profile page.

Does that make sense?

I think the point is that the "competitive" TG records stand out and above the other "records". In a competitive site, a record isn't a collection of documents. I agree that the "Other Records" label is misleading but not technically inaccurate. This allows room for improving the label and limit the confusion. My suggestion is call them "Other Approved Submissions".

Originally Posted by Barthax

So what is left to entice someone to spend random hours of voting then 13+ SP on creating a new track and submit to it when the inaugurals have no value in any metric of the scoreboard?

Personally, I'd like to see an "Inaugurals submitted" or similar. It could be done based on submission time stamps for each track and even listed permanently on the track page. Also, making inaugural submissions free might be a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Desidious

And that would be all well and good IF you wanted to create a bounty for something of that nature.. but what if you don't?

I'm not trying to target but this is a good example: say LAH16 wants to track the fact that he beat certain bosses or monsters in Final Fantasy X. He realizes there's no way to track doing something like that (which would require a checklist of sort) so he just creates "Gil earned" tracks that showcases he beats the the monsters/bosses. Sure they can be "achievement tracks" but it's simply a bandaid put over what he originally wants to do.

So surely there has to be another method to track some things that aren't number related than just using the bounty system.

I believe what he wanted to do was to easily climb the WR ladder, so he pushed the methods he used to the point people got unconfortable and protested. That led to this conversation, which was a topic that existed way before Lamund or myself joined the site, so that is a good thing, to discuss and resolve an important issue.

If inaugurals, easy maxouts and set scores no longer count towards the WR leaderboard I doubt very much he would still submit as much as he did. But I absolutely believe that there should be a place for what he wants to do, call it achievments or whatever and put them in their own category, if he wants to be the king of a leaderboard like that I absolutely support him.

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Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Maxouts are more or less getting partially addressed when we finish with the "Pending Modification" mentioned in the original post.

I'll wait to see how this pans out, but it sounds like maxouts are being relegated to a second citizen status, as has been done with inaugural scores with the current update. And that's too bad.

I get the change to inaugurals, even if I don't agree. Maybe there's an argrument for maxouts as well, and yes, I read the previous thread. But I can't help but feel a bit kicked to the curb after dedicating a very long time to practicing and achieving my arcade maxout, playing nearly four hours doing it and then getting it redesignated under a new term. There have only been three proven maxouts on the game since 1985, and I did mine specifially for a TG world record (and was the first to do it at TG). Now it sounds like a TG world record may not even possible on the game.

I'll of course wait to see what action TG takes on maxouts, I may be talking way ahead of myself. But it sure sounds like I'm going to be disappointed. I know I'm a small fish in this pond and this is what a lot of the cool kids asked for, but dang.

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Originally Posted by Emayl

There have only been three proven maxouts on the game since 1985, and I did mine specifially for a TG world record (and was the first to do it at TG). Now it sounds like a TG world record may not even possible on the game.

If you're referring to Yie Ar Kung-fu, it's unaffected by this change, since all scores on the track are not maxouts.

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Originally Posted by Don Atreides

If you're referring to Yie Ar Kung-fu, it's unaffected by this change, since all scores on the track are not maxouts.

I'll admit I may have missed that detail. I was assuming when Jace said in the OP that maxouts would be dealt with after the "pending" portion of the current changes were implemented that it meant there were more, unspecified changes yet to be announced. I may have misinterpreted that. Guess I just felt the need to offer an opinion.

Apologies if I was off about that.

Originally Posted by Emayl

I'll wait to see how this pans out, but it sounds like maxouts are being relegated to a second citizen status, as has been done with inaugural scores with the current update. And that's too bad.

I get the change to inaugurals, even if I don't agree. Maybe there's an argrument for maxouts as well, and yes, I read the previous thread. But I can't help but feel a bit kicked to the curb after dedicating a very long time to practicing and achieving my arcade maxout, playing nearly four hours doing it and then getting it redesignated under a new term. There have only been three proven maxouts on the game since 1985, and I did mine specifially for a TG world record (and was the first to do it at TG). Now it sounds like a TG world record may not even possible on the game.

I'll of course wait to see what action TG takes on maxouts, I may be talking way ahead of myself. But it sure sounds like I'm going to be disappointed. I know I'm a small fish in this pond and this is what a lot of the cool kids asked for, but dang.

oh some tied world records are impressive enough on a competitve hard game if not more impressive than a unmathced record on an obscure hardly competed on game. Theres absuletly some maxouts, that even 20 people can tie on that are still super respectable regardless. The problem is how many easy maxouts there are too. If you had to isolate every easy maxout there'd be just as much drama for each one, multipled out by all of them as there is for discussing them in aggregate. so if we need simple easy solutions that dont allow for sujective calls on the spots its one of those cases where you feel bad about the cvilians casualites but you expect it as the price to win. i defintely hope my repeated calls for a sepeartiaon dont imply i just scough at all maxouts. pitfall on the atari 2600 as well as kaboom, not to mention the all respected tetris are some good examples of very impressive achievemeents

Originally Posted by Emayl

I may have misinterpreted that. Guess I just felt the need to offer an opinion. Apologies if I was off about that.

Perfectly understandable, no need to apologize. There will be some confusion until the dust settles no doubt.

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remember how annoyed we all were with this proposal several years ago?

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I get it, but I don't. My personal complaint. I have a perfect score on Rockband track submitted to TG in 2010. (check scorehero, web, etc.) It is the only score submitted on TG's leaderboard. Now it's not a TG world Record............. Sorta week.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/the-beatles-rock-band/playstation-3/single-player-drums-a-hard-days-night-points/page/1

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